What makes a good bass line

[AcousticShred]

I am in a band, and we have always had this problem with our bass player. Hes a great bass player, knows tons of songs and is techinally very adept. Only problem is that when we tell him to write a bass part to a song, they either come out like bass solos, or really simple (root notes). His bass lines work theory-wise, they fit the key and scale, and the mood of the song, but they just dont sound like bass lines. What makes a good bassline to you guys? Please, dont just say something you can groove to or tap your foot :p because we've tried telling him that.

[thunder_bird]

Well first of all i like playing baslines that have interessting rhythms. Ones that don't have the same rhythm as the guitar. I like ading an octave in here and there. Pentatonic runs but i always like them to be discreet. By the way i have little musical knowledge so im sorry if this makes no sense, i don't really know how to discribe it.

[Lazy Bee]

Tough question. I play guitar now, but for 12 years I made a living as a bassist so I can offer a few suggestions. If your band is based on a brotherhood, let that rule the day. If it's something else and this guy isn't working out maybe you should move on. Time is precious. Sorry I know that was not your question. So much depends on your style of music. To me a great bassist accepts that his is a supportive role. So a great bass line should provide a solid part that does not get in the way or walk on anybody. Make sure he can hear the kick drum and that he nails it every time the drummer does. Sounds like the guy can rip. Maybe you could write a couple of songs that feature him and let him go. That might help him settle down for the rest of the show. I allways felt like the guitarist and singer were the stars if you will, and my job was to make them comfortable. You gotta ask yourself, do you feel relaxed and free to phrase and improvise at will or are you having to help keep the foundation in place? I'm rambleing again. But it is part of what I'm trying to say. A bass player needs to provide that, and when he does he'll be playing killer bass parts for your band. Ask him to study a bassist you admire or maybe a band that has a feel you're looking for. Good luck man.

[AcousticShred]

Thanks Ill try that though. His favorite bands are Tool and Led Zeppelin, both which have great bassists, so Im not sure whats happening.

[Lazy Bee]

Shred... I noticed on another thread that you write bass parts sometimes, that was gonna be my next suggestion. If you don't have one, buy a cheap bass and write the lines yourself. Some guys don't like to be told what to play. Yet some of the best paid guys in the buisness do it everyday. Got a true story for you that just happened to me. Two days ago an engineer friend of mine called me and told to bring my bass to the studio. He was recording an album for an artist on a major label. I told him he had the wrong number, I hadn't played seriously in years. He insisted, I showed up. I had to write my own charts because I couldn't read the band leaders. I was the only guy there who didn't make his living as a session player, I felt like an idiot. Once I calmed down a bit and realized I wasn't going to stink as bad as I thought, and the day wore on, I was really having a good time. Several parts I played though had to be redone. The artist really helped me get what he wanted. He couldn't play, but he would hum the parts from the booth into my headphones. I played them exactly like he hummed them to the point where he said now "own it" where I began to add little movements. I went back day two for more of the same. The record is not finished (he has some road work to do) but he called me today and told me he had been listening to the ruff mixes and he loves the stuff I played and wants me to do a lot more. I get my name on the record and a check and more work. I know this is off base and sounds a little puffed up but it's not intended to be. The point is he knew what he wanted and I was open to it. What makes a good bass line? Communication! Ego checked at the door helps.

[t_shirtsnjeans]

Yep, the bass kick and the bass guitar work together for the most part. If you'll listen very close to a lot of music the bass comes across very strong due mainly to the kick and bass hitting at the same time. Bass guitar by itself is kinda weak, and bass kick is weak also if you hear just a bass drum by itself, BUT put the two together you have the punch that you want. So that is one piece of advice, make sure the drummer and bassist have a good working relationship. Now the bass player can do some extra runs sparingly to add to the flavor or seasoning of the song, but too much and you have another lead (but bassy) guitar and that can cause conflict soundwise.
Something else to listen to is the rhythem guitar and snare/high-hat/cymbal relationship. This works different from the bass kick and bassist.
Think about this, if everyone hits the same beat then you get mush, so the different times that the players work lend to harmony in the instrumental parts.

[SKEETER]

Melodic simplicity. The bass lines should first of all be played TO the drums. They should be conservatively played, not overdone at all. Lots of bass notes constantly tend to muddy up the music and detract from it. The bass should be emphasized with the kick, and a good bass player can do nice runs over drum rolls that are in exact time with the rolls. That makes even the most simplest of bands sound impressive. Bass lines should also be melodic, and not sound like someone is just practicing their scales over top of someones song.

[SKEETER]

P.S good musicianship has nothing to do with the amount of notes you can play in the shortest space of time. The fastest playing musicians in the world sound like hell if they don't have feel and continuity. At the same time, some of the best sounding music out there is very simplistic and not being done by virtuosos, but by artists. There is a VAST difference. Listen to some J J Cale some time, the perfect example of jammin music that is not about virtuosity.

[ModestCargo]

Agreed Skeeter, and I love JJ Cale's stuff.

[guitarchitect]

Here's my two cents...

Bass, obviously, is the foundation of whatever you're trying to create musically...you can almost think of it (along with the percussion) in a contextual sense with regard to the rest of the music. With that said, what kind of context do you want to create - in what kind of environment are you going to stage your musical saga? Will the ground be firm and reliable, putting all the focus onto the characters and events you're creating? Is there liable to be an earthquake at any moment? Is the interaction between context and event in and of itself the focal point of your composition?

Keep this in mind as you look at your songs and your bass parts. The question is not "Is this bass part good?" It is, rather, "What am I trying to accomplish with this bass part, and once I know that, how should I go about accomplishing it?" Think less in absolute terms of good and bad, and think more in terms of accordance with whatever overarching principle permeates your composition.

Hope that helped.

[Lazy Bee]

" overarching principle permeating your composisition?" I must be slow. :hammer:

[Peaceful]

Re your bass man problem, do you like the guy? Maybe it is a personality clash thing, you know, whatever he does is bad even if it is good.


What do I know? I am just a newbie here!

[AcousticShred]

Nah, we are friends outside the band

Yea we have tried everything. The guy is a really good musician, but the basslines are jus cheesy and go nowhere. I like to write basslines, but I cant help feeling like I am being bossy and telling him what to do.

[Lazy Bee]

That's cool you're putting the frienship first. Still though the bass is a supportive role in my opinion. Boss away, or teach away. I'm not trying to make light of your situation man. Just cuttin up a bit.

[Lazy Bee]

I gotta say for all the yakin I've done on this thread....for three days I've been trying to put a bass line on a new song of mine. And for three days I've been stinkin it up bad. It's like I don't have a clue what to play to nail this one down. It's a very simple little tune. Wierd!

[SKEETER]

I have a suggestion for you, start by just playing bass notes on the downbeat that are just the root of whatever chord it is over, then fill in the spaces with the scale it is in, always works for me..............

[Lazy Bee]

I have a suggestion for you, start by just playing bass notes on the downbeat that are just the root of whatever chord it is over, then fill in the spaces with the scale it is in, always works for me..............

Funny you would say that, last night when I got home thats what I did. Just played on the kick through the verses. I V I I...I octave I I...of each chord. The bridge wound up having a moving part as did the tag. And I'm done, sometimes the simplest thing does the trick. :o

[AcousticShred]

Yea he tries that and does it fine, but his fills just sound like random note from the scale. They dont sound like basslines. Or when he tries to get more creative than just root notes, it sounds like hes soloing. Its very frustrating.

[slowpoke]

What kind of music do you guys play?

A good bass line outlines the chordal structure of the song, works with the drummer, stands on it's own, supports all the band but mostly guides your ear. A lot of bass lines I really like mimic the vocal line from time to time. If I'm thinking correctly there's some songs on Srgt. Peppers that do this really well. If you're an instrumental act then try using the melody.

Bass lines can move by scales, chromaticism, chord tones, leading tones, etc.

Um I might have some other advice depending on the music you guys make.

[BMG_SKULK]

I am in a band, and we have always had this problem with our bass player. Hes a great bass player, knows tons of songs and is techinally very adept. Only problem is that when we tell him to write a bass part to a song, they either come out like bass solos, or really simple (root notes). His bass lines work theory-wise, they fit the key and scale, and the mood of the song, but they just dont sound like bass lines. What makes a good bassline to you guys? Please, dont just say something you can groove to or tap your foot :p because we've tried telling him that.
A good bassline to me is one that gives some rumble to the tune.
I don't mind a Bassist doing his little runs and stuff in a tune, just not
while I am doing mine.

99.9% of the time I have to make a Bass line with the Octaver on my RP,
as their are very few Bass players on the internet....and even fewer good
ones.

Most of the time I feel a Bass line should drive the song, the way a
group of cellos drive an orchestral piece. It should give you that
hook and beat...groove to feeed off of.

[SKEETER]

I mostly listen to and play stuff from before rock died. I prefer 60s and early 70s music. Some of the stuff toward the end of rock music was not bad, I am a fan of Dire Straits, for example. After the 70s, as rock started turning into a parody of itself, I lost interest in popular music. Some of the radio stuff in the 80s was ok. But, as things like punk and metal started getting more common, music just started becoming bland. Some of the current stuff played on alternative stations is a little creative, but there doesn't seem to be much musicianship to it. It seems to me that in most of the alternative bands the drummer is the most talented member.
I suspect there is a book out there called "the how to produce a music CD manual" that all of the producers are using as a textbook that sits open beside them as they produce. Music has prgressively become somewhat generic over the last 25 years.

[AcousticShred]

Thanks guys, I like writing basslines, but I just needed some words to pass on to my bassist on how one should sound.

[treyanastasio]

As a mainly bass player who is currently transforming into a guitar player I have trouble agreeing that the bass is a backing instrument. i am not saying you are wrong lazy bee but i just feel differently. i know the guitar players that i play with in a cover band get annoyed sometime with my basslines which kinda walk around and dont repeat a whole lot.
That probably has to do with my musical tastes though. the bands that i tend to listen to see all the instruments as contributing to one sound. i do not like when anyone is a star in a band but that is just my opinion. and there are always exceptions but i mean look at phil lesh. phil played like phil and it was great and melodic and the music of the dead was not just a bunch of people filling in sonic space while jerry jammed and sang. but john paul jones is a great musician yet he will forever been known as the bass player who backed up page and plant.
for originals you must either find someone you are on the same page with musically who you trust will write lines that go along with what you write on the other instruments or(beating the dead horse of what others have said) write them yourself.
listen to the album "clone" by Leo Kottke and Mike Gordon. Great example of great bass playing along with and not just backing up a great guitarist.

[SKEETER]

Bass is by nature a rythm section instrument. Someone has to fill in the lower end of the spectrum, and too many notes in the bass in most parts of a song just clutters it up, as opposed to guitar and piano which are for the most part melody line and fill instruments. Not using the bass to fill in the low end leaves a huge gap in music, when the bass is doing upper range into the guitar frequencies, noone is covering the low end. Too many instruments in the same frequencies in a mix is mud.

[ModestCargo]

I mostly listen to and play stuff from before rock died. I prefer 60s and early 70s music. Some of the stuff toward the end of rock music was not bad, I am a fan of Dire Straits, for example. After the 70s, as rock started turning into a parody of itself, I lost interest in popular music. Some of the radio stuff in the 80s was ok. But, as things like punk and metal started getting more common, music just started becoming bland. Some of the current stuff played on alternative stations is a little creative, but there doesn't seem to be much musicianship to it. It seems to me that in most of the alternative bands the drummer is the most talented member.
I suspect there is a book out there called "the how to produce a music CD manual" that all of the producers are using as a textbook that sits open beside them as they produce. Music has prgressively become somewhat generic over the last 25 years.
100 percent agreed. You hit my feelings right on the head.

As for the bass player - write the bass parts yourself. Just sit there with an acoustic guitar muffling the strings and figure out some good groovin' lines.

[Lazy Bee]

Double Post :o

[Lazy Bee]

As a mainly bass player who is currently transforming into a guitar player I have trouble agreeing that the bass is a backing instrument. i am not saying you are wrong lazy bee but i just feel differently. i know the guitar players that i play with in a cover band get annoyed sometime with my basslines which kinda walk around and dont repeat a whole lot.

I hear ya. It's totally up to interpetation and musical style. And you site some good melodic bassists. And if that's what you look for in a bassists that's cool. There is a fine line between a good moving bass line that is supportive and a guy wankin away cuz he can. As your transformation becomes complete and you start lookin for a bassist it'll be interesting to see what you feel like.

[SKEETER]

The bass is a backing instrument and always will be. In all styles. The bass is just not a pleasant lead instrument. Typically when bass players in bands try to play the bass as if it was a 6 string guitar, they do more damage to the music than they do augment it. Even in classical music bass is not a lead instrument.
There are bass players out there that know how to play a lot of notes and make it sound good, because they do it in the context of the music, but they don't do it by sacraficing the real purpuse of the bass, which is to hold down the low frequencies of the rhythm section. I have found that most of the guys that try to play a bass fast don't really know how to play the bass, and they typically don't have a good musical ear. They have just been able to learn a lot of calesthentics on the instrument.
Good musicians are not musicians that play fast, they are musicians that play well and play creatively. I would rather hear J J Cale play guitar than Joe Satriani any day.

[tcook]

ya have to "feel" a bassline, it comes from inside. It's not the lead part and although it's tied to the drums, it's not all rythym either...it's like the bridge between the two.
As far as the original post, it sounds like the guy should be playing lead guitar. Thats what is coming from his "inside".
Just my opinion and kind of silly, but it's what I think

[SKEETER]

ya have to "feel" a bassline, it comes from inside. It's not the lead part and although it's tied to the drums, it's not all rythym either...it's like the bridge between the two.
As far as the original post, it sounds like the guy should be playing lead guitar. Thats what is coming from his "inside".
Just my opinion and kind of silly, but it's what I think


Very nice way to sum up what "groove" means. I think you got it right on.

[Sage]

hopefully, I'm not too late to this thread, I have a couple of suggestions.


1. Lots of people are saying that bass is a rythym based instrument, and they're right, but I think a lot of what your complaining about is his missing of the tonality. It was mentioned that the bass should drive the song, but consider what drives a song on guitar ?

It's the tension, the need to resolve tones and finish melodies (the earlier idea about "feeling" the bassline ) In the key of A, for example, if the bass sits on a G note, the guitar can work a G7 chord, which, when you add 9ths and 11ths, it just begs to be resolved to the A. That tension forces the drummer out of the count rythym and into a build rythym and you can push the song along that way. So maybe consider that the bassist isn't hitting the right tones, because he's not sure where you're taking the song. Sit down and go over why you use that G chord (because it resolves to A and gives the song shape) and then practice as few bars of the change, so the bassist can figure out how to get to the G to build the tension, and the how to get to the A to resolve the tension.

To continue the analogy in the key of A. If your song resolves to an A chord, where does it go from there? Let's say it's A, D, G7, A. You've solved the build from G to A, now work on how you get from the A to the D -- are you running up a minor scale to get there? Is the hook of the song in that run? Then talk to the bassist about making a simple change to keep the hook clear. Is there nothing special about that change, let the bassist know it's straight forward and he can fill as he pleases.

I like to call the bassist "the doctor of dynamics" he can push and pull the song in any direction. Plum that E string with 2 fingers and the song picks up. Hit it once every 4 beats and it will slow down.


2. With the dynamics approach -- break your song down a bit by section. Does it build, or are you just jamming on the same riff and waiting for boredom to inspire or destroy? Once you get a good baseline running, consider counting that line for, say.......4 bars, and then have the bass figure out a good walk up to the EXACT SAME BASSLINE in a higher octave. Amazing isn't it? You've just raise the heartbeat of the song, and there is a general feeling of frenzy building. And vice versa, reverse that walk down into the lower octave and finish it off by holding the open chord on resolve.

3. Stop playing guitar all the time. Again, it works for dynamics, but it also let's the drummer and the bassist get sorted out every once in a while. Get into a rythymic syncopation and let the bass work on the lead with the major tones, you can work the rythym right back in to the melody and the bassist feels "heard."

4. I think you mentioned how you didn't know much theory, or stuff on how the music worked. This may be a bit of a glass ceiling that's not helping. Theory lets you stitch things together tighter and faster. Learn how 9ths, 7ths, 11ths, and 13ths are made, and how the tone relates to the major notes in that scale. Odds are the bass is working off of major notes, so when you just double those, your missing opportunities to color them, and give your song shape and flavour.

I suppose I'm rambling. Now I just wanna pick up a bass and groove out for a bit

:-)

[Eclectifish]

1) The Bass guitar and bass drum should be connected at the hip.
2) Simplicity over complexity.
3) (Important) The bass line should always land on the important chord note on the exact beat where the chord changes.
4) (Also Important -- probably the most important) When not accentuating chord changes, the bass player should play passing tones which naturally lead to the next chord change -- or in some cases to another note in the chord -- but it's extremely important for the bass line to anticipate the chord change. For example: If the chords go from I to V, the bass player can start a walk down the scale from the root to the 5th, walk up from the root to the 5th, or if he's leaping around then he has to make sure that he jumps to a note which leads to the 5th (like 4#). The only exception to this rule (that I can think of right now) that was succesful was Jon Entwistle. But he was so full that he allowed the other band members to go off in other directions. Really, with the Who, Townsend acted more like the bass player while Entwistle and Moon went all over the place. Basically, the Who was different (although Zeppelin was a little bit like them - John Paul Jones was pretty free - but he still had a good sense of theory and 'usually' led to the proper chord change).

[AcousticShred]

hopefully, I'm not too late to this thread, I have a couple of suggestions.


1. Lots of people are saying that bass is a rythym based instrument, and they're right, but I think a lot of what your complaining about is his missing of the tonality. It was mentioned that the bass should drive the song, but consider what drives a song on guitar ?

It's the tension, the need to resolve tones and finish melodies (the earlier idea about "feeling" the bassline ) In the key of A, for example, if the bass sits on a G note, the guitar can work a G7 chord, which, when you add 9ths and 11ths, it just begs to be resolved to the A. That tension forces the drummer out of the count rythym and into a build rythym and you can push the song along that way. So maybe consider that the bassist isn't hitting the right tones, because he's not sure where you're taking the song. Sit down and go over why you use that G chord (because it resolves to A and gives the song shape) and then practice as few bars of the change, so the bassist can figure out how to get to the G to build the tension, and the how to get to the A to resolve the tension.

To continue the analogy in the key of A. If your song resolves to an A chord, where does it go from there? Let's say it's A, D, G7, A. You've solved the build from G to A, now work on how you get from the A to the D -- are you running up a minor scale to get there? Is the hook of the song in that run? Then talk to the bassist about making a simple change to keep the hook clear. Is there nothing special about that change, let the bassist know it's straight forward and he can fill as he pleases.

I like to call the bassist "the doctor of dynamics" he can push and pull the song in any direction. Plum that E string with 2 fingers and the song picks up. Hit it once every 4 beats and it will slow down.


2. With the dynamics approach -- break your song down a bit by section. Does it build, or are you just jamming on the same riff and waiting for boredom to inspire or destroy? Once you get a good baseline running, consider counting that line for, say.......4 bars, and then have the bass figure out a good walk up to the EXACT SAME BASSLINE in a higher octave. Amazing isn't it? You've just raise the heartbeat of the song, and there is a general feeling of frenzy building. And vice versa, reverse that walk down into the lower octave and finish it off by holding the open chord on resolve.

3. Stop playing guitar all the time. Again, it works for dynamics, but it also let's the drummer and the bassist get sorted out every once in a while. Get into a rythymic syncopation and let the bass work on the lead with the major tones, you can work the rythym right back in to the melody and the bassist feels "heard."

4. I think you mentioned how you didn't know much theory, or stuff on how the music worked. This may be a bit of a glass ceiling that's not helping. Theory lets you stitch things together tighter and faster. Learn how 9ths, 7ths, 11ths, and 13ths are made, and how the tone relates to the major notes in that scale. Odds are the bass is working off of major notes, so when you just double those, your missing opportunities to color them, and give your song shape and flavour.

I suppose I'm rambling. Now I just wanna pick up a bass and groove out for a bit

:-)


thanks alot everyone for your input. There were some good ideas in there Sage. The only thing I want to add though is that both me and the bass player know theory, almost too much theory because he always analyzes the song into what notes he should be playing rather than what notes sound the best. Its just frustrating

[SKEETER]

Of further consideration, there is also a tendancy to confuse complexity with creativity. Creative can be, and often is , very simple. The most creative bass line ever concieved is the 7/8 timing bass line to "Money" , a song I don't particularly like. But , that bass line, as simple as it is, is a stroke of genius.

[YowhatsupT]

have him try listening to roadhouse blues, by the doors. Even though it may not fit the mood it may help give him the idea of what a bass line is supposed to do through out a song.

To me the bass should be simple, until the bass solo at which point it should rock the house. A good bass line is like a punk song. Simple but still rythemic. Repition in my opinion is the bass players friend.

[Peaceful]

"what notes sound the best."

I think that nails it. BTW, it is now over two months since I bought my bass - still loving it. I have practised with a small band twice now. Of course, my bass lines are simple, mostly pentatonic runs, but even to my newbie ear, they 'seem to fit the music'. So far, I haven't been drummed out of the brownies so I must be doing something right.

Your description of the bassists skills reminded me of Narsisso Ypes (sp?), the German classic guitarist. He is technically perfect but has no emotion. Contrast him to Christopher Parkening, also technically perfect but he can draw emotion from you like an onion draws tears.

[SKEETER]

If you want to learn some KILLER bass moves, find two CDs by STEPPENWOLF, one is called STEPPENWOLF 7 and the other is FOR LADIES ONLY. VERY creative bass lines. The epitome of what rock bass should sound like.

[t_shirtsnjeans]

Bass drum goes 'BOOMP'
Bass guitar goes 'Boooooooooooommmmm' :D

[SKEETER]

kind of like the difference between a fart and a saloon. One is a BAR ROOM and the other is a BARRRROOOOOOOM!

[KingAngus]

I think about 80% of the time just riding the A string is the best as a bass line

[Lazy Bee]

Bass drum goes 'BOOMP'
Bass guitar goes 'Boooooooooooommmmm' :D

Booties on the dance floor goes boomp booooom bump.:toohappy:

[Globe_Dasher]

Music is what you make of it. If you gave this guy creative control of his bass line then you gave control to someone who can’t write a bass line your way.

Who writes the songs? Who is the bandleader? Is it a democratic or an autocratic band? Do your tastes in music and your band’s music fit together? And the same goes for your bass player (does he like to play country while the band plays metal?).

Friends come and go. Life is short. I watch out for number one, and loyalty doesn’t mean a thing.

[SKEETER]

I seen my sons band a couple weeks back, and it is a fantastci band, except the bass player. I think perhaps the guy is more interested in being known as a musician than he is the music itself. He makes wild exaggerated moves when he plays, and plays a ton of notes, but nothing he does is very interesting because it is more show than it is musical creativity. He would be better off to stand still and do some basic tasty bass playing.

I have the whole thing sewed up, I have my own studio and record everything myself, that way I can get exactly what is in my head onto tape. I don't have to worry about bass players that try to play lead on a bass or drummers that want to play a thousand miles an hour on a ballad.
It really sucks to play in a band with a rythm section that is trying to be the whole show themselves. Good rythm sections have a bass player and drummer that play to each other... not all over each other and everyone else.
A rythm section is as often as not the deciding factor in whether a band sounds tight or not.

[Mr. Boston]

Hard slap technique on the root, in synch with the drummer's kick; fst plucking of higher notes in synch with the high hat. That's generally my bass player's approach and I dig it.