Tips on intonation

[ValveTronix]

Again, its copied from my website.
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Intonation is basically how well a guitar plays in Tune. You can spend 10
minutes tuning your guitar with an electric tuner, but if it is not intonated,
it will still sound bad, especially after the 12th fret.


Strings on a guitar have 2 points, the bridge and the nut. The nut is not
moveable, so obviosly, you will have to adjust the bridge, or more
specifically the saddles. The adjustment to the saddles with determine wether
your guitar is 'in-tune'


Many factors make the string longer than the guitars scale (many
Gibsons/Epiphones are 24-3/4").


1; Strings rise at an angle from the nut to the bridge


2; Strings get farther away from each other as they get closer to the bridge.


Now, before intonating your guitar you need to check some things.


1; Frets are level and crowned

2; Adjusted truss rod


3; New fully stretched strings


Now you must decide if you want to tune to the transient or to the
dwell. 'Soft' players usually tune to the decay, otherwise most players tune
to the transient.


ALWAYS TUNE WITH THE GUITAR IN PLAYING POSITION


Now, to actually intonate


Play the open string, then play the 12th fret of the same string. The 2 notes
should be a perfect octave (1200 cents). If the fretted note is flat, move the
bridge saddle forward, if it is sharp, move it backward.


If you have trouble geting a accurate octave, try lowering your pickups. They
can pull on a string, and put it out of tune. Also, try to keep your hand off
of the tuning pegs, and headstock, unless you are making an adjustment. The
weight of your hand can actually bend the note partially.







-Eric

[Audiocide]

Just as sidenotes....

- NEVER touch the 12th fret when intonating as light as you possibly can. Put the same pressure on it as if you were playing, as to ensure your notes will be close.

- I highly recommend ifyou invest in a tuner you make it a worthwhile investment; go chromatic (will show any note) and magnetic needle (as opposed to digital readout) tuners. They feature a BOSS tuner in Musician's Friend for $60-USD that is very worth the money. I absolutely love it and it has helped greatly.

- There are other intonation options, such as the Buzz Feiten tuning system. It's a development of the nut in which some of the scale length is shortened on specific strings due to the natural tendencies of the strings themselves (the intonation system specified above is a system that would work best on an instrument using one thickness gauge of string across all six notes.

Like with a vehicle, running in just 3rd gear the whole time would not cut it, so we need a variety of string sizes. Some of the fretboard between the nut and first fret (not too much, mind you) must be removed and a new nut placed in. The thicker strings must be cut back to about where the nut used to be, and the high E and B must be as well. the nut curves towards the center strigns and the bridge saddle intonation changes as well, bringing the guitar to as close as I believe it can get. I have this modification on my Strat now and can barely stand my Jackson with Floyd Rose, as I constantly retune it.

It makes an extreme difference, and any authorized BFTS luthier can surely make you a "shelf nut" (where an extra-wide nut is made and undercut to the existing slot) as a test run of the BFTS.

Look it up.

Thanks for the article, by the way.

--mic

[t_shirtsnjeans]

My strat is suffering, or rather, I'M suffering!

I can intonate at the 12th, but at the 3rd it is very sharp!
I'm thinking of lowering the nut just a tad just before fret buzz on open string.
Right now I'm using 9's since it has a whammy and locking nut, and really really really don't wanna go 10's since the whammy is set and I can't stretch like I want as I can with the 9's.

So, do I go skating...... or rent a movie?

[t_shirtsnjeans]

I know you guys are sitting on the edge of your seat waiting for me to post about my 'problem', and well, I fixed it.
The neck had a severe negative bow away from the strings, and well, I found an allen wrench that was short enough to go between the locking nut and the truss rod. Flattened out the neck and she plays Bee A Youtifulll!!!

Thanks for asking, and you can sit back now, I'm done (at the moment) :D

[TzolkinelemenT]

I'm having a problem with my Jackson King V's intonation. I have my floyd rose saddles extended all the way and the 12th fret is still coming up slightly sharp on the D,A, and E strings. If I get different gauge strings will this solve the problem at all?

[ValveTronix]

Tzol... diffrent gauge strings will affect it... but theres no way to know if it would solve it... id guess so

[TzolkinelemenT]

Cool thanks VT, I'm going to try some thicker gauge on the top and keep the bottom relatively light for lead play.

If that doesn't work, i'll just smash it :_devil:

[StringFlinger]

Could you use the octave harmonic on the 12th fret instead of actually fretting it? It seems like fretting it could cause you to bend the string a tiny bit and maybe yield less accurate intonation. Is there anything wrong with just using the harmonic instead?

[ModestCargo]

Could you use the octave harmonic on the 12th fret instead of actually fretting it? It seems like fretting it could cause you to bend the string a tiny bit and maybe yield less accurate intonation. Is there anything wrong with just using the harmonic instead?
When you hit the harmonic I believe you are basically going to get the same read as the open, no matter how bad the intonation is.

Also, you bend the note slightly off pitch when you're playing, so you want it set to compensate for that - in other words that's a good thing.

[SKEETER]

The major factor in why the different strings need different distance values from the 12th fret is because of the diameter of the strings. Many classical guitarists actually choose the diameter of each string based on how it effects intonation, they intonate the guitar with string guages.

DO NOT use harmonics to intonate. In fact, when you intonate actually get chord structures. This is so that you will intonate according to how you fret a guitar. Do it with chord structures because chord structures are where bad intonatin shows up the most. Also, intonate at other frets than just the 12th.
You can actually intonate a guitar perfectly, then when you get a chord up the neck it will be out. This is because all guitarists fret differently, particularly with chords, and intonating while chording will accomodate your own particular fretting quirks.
I intonate open to the 12th, Then for example on the high E I check it again at the 5th (A) and the 10th (D). Sometimes , depending on the curvature of the neck, you will find that it is sligtly out at the A or D. If it is you can sometimes solve it by averaging it.

I seldom have to average to get perfect intonation, because I do the unthinkable. I make my necks perfectly straight. I have been doing this a long time, and I cannot do it to every guitar ( other than Korean guitars, for some reason their fretwork is so close I seem to always be able to get the straight without buzz).
I then put the action as low as I can without buzz.

The reason I do this is because I am a FREAK about intonation, and the closer the action, the closer the intonation. Also, the more consistant the string height from the strings across the fretboard, the better the intonation. It only stands to reason, if the strings are different distances from the fretboard up the neck, they will tend to intonate differently because you push the string farther down, shortening it's disance more.
That would be compensatable except, when you say get a D chord at the tenth fret, the differences in diameters of the strings make the amount you press down have a different effect on each string.

Interestingly , the other guitarsts I have talked to that agree with me about this and do it also are very good singers, and are also freaks about intonation.

[SKEETER]

My strat is suffering, or rather, I'M suffering!

I can intonate at the 12th, but at the 3rd it is very sharp!
I'm thinking of lowering the nut just a tad just before fret buzz on open string.
Right now I'm using 9's since it has a whammy and locking nut, and really really really don't wanna go 10's since the whammy is set and I can't stretch like I want as I can with the 9's.

So, do I go skating...... or rent a movie?
\

I don't use floating systems for this very reason. It is nearly impossible to keep them adjusted.
If you have a significant bow at the fifth fret, that could cause the intonation to suffer at the 3rd and the 5th, I think.

[Reverend40oz]

Have you guys ever tried to adjust the saddles on one of these?
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=home/search/detail/base_pid/511146/

Here's a closeup of the bridge:
http://img3.musiciansfriend.com/dbase/pics/products/5/1/1/269511.jpg

[grail]

Hi ValveTronix,

You are an asset to the Jammers, your posting on intonation for raised fret guitars is very good, NO its EXCELLANT ! . I would add to your setup instructions to always pluck over the octave, as this sets the string vibration in unison ( equal motion on both sides of the center point of the string ), also when plucking a fretted note the same rule applys.

Grail

[ValveTronix]

Grail, that would give you a more exact intonation.

BUT

No one actually plays guitar over the octave, which means, intonation with picking over the octave is useless.

[HolyCrow]

I tried to setup the intonation on my schecter lastnight and it was a freakin mess. all my strings are perfect except for the last 3 (e, b, g) I am always flat no matter what, there dosent seem to be enough adjustment.. and its not a little off, its way off where i have to bend the string almost a half step...any suggestions?

[feandro]

I'm having a similar issue to t_shirtsnjeans, though slightly different. I can set the intonation fairly well at the 12th fret, but it's never right closer to the nut. The first fret is anywhere from 10-15 cents off, the second fret is more like 5-7 cents off, and then it gets pretty close as I move up the neck. The problem is really only there in the thicker strings (low E, A, D) and seems fine in the thinner ones. In terms of physics, this make sense to me since more pressure is required to push down the thicker strings, and therefore more stretching of the note etc. but . . . is there something that can be done?

I've already adjusted the truss rod myself, and when that didn't help, I brought it into a shop and they made a small adjustment, though they said it looked pretty good as I had it. The action is already set fairly low, so much that if I really pluck or strum with a lot of emphasis, there's just a small amount of buzz on the low E and A strings. . . not sure what else to do, but just try to fret these notes lightly and live with it???

Any tips for a newb to intonation would be much appreciated. Thanks.

[SKEETER]

I tried to setup the intonation on my schecter lastnight and it was a freakin mess. all my strings are perfect except for the last 3 (e, b, g) I am always flat no matter what, there dosent seem to be enough adjustment.. and its not a little off, its way off where i have to bend the string almost a half step...any suggestions?

If it is a stop tailpiece you might be able to flip the saddles around. Worst case is to move that end of the bridge. If it is a floating tailpeice, intonating them is a waste of time anyway..................

[SKEETER]

I'm having a similar issue to t_shirtsnjeans, though slightly different. I can set the intonation fairly well at the 12th fret, but it's never right closer to the nut. The first fret is anywhere from 10-15 cents off, the second fret is more like 5-7 cents off, and then it gets pretty close as I move up the neck. The problem is really only there in the thicker strings (low E, A, D) and seems fine in the thinner ones. In terms of physics, this make sense to me since more pressure is required to push down the thicker strings, and therefore more stretching of the note etc. but . . . is there something that can be done?

I've already adjusted the truss rod myself, and when that didn't help, I brought it into a shop and they made a small adjustment, though they said it looked pretty good as I had it. The action is already set fairly low, so much that if I really pluck or strum with a lot of emphasis, there's just a small amount of buzz on the low E and A strings. . . not sure what else to do, but just try to fret these notes lightly and live with it???

Any tips for a newb to intonation would be much appreciated. Thanks.


Whatever side of the bridge the saddles are already at, take them all the way to the opposite side and start again........
If that does not get you good intonation, then it sounds to me like the fret scale is slightly off..... Which, even the cheapest guitars now have perfect scale layouts and can be intonated well, so that would be rare.

ALSO I have had brands of strings that would not intonate right.
I use D'addarios, and nothing else. They always intonate well and sound great, and last a long time on whatever guitar I use them on. And, the price is right........

[Speedo]

"all my strings are perfect except for the last 3 (e, b, g)"

To me this almost sounds like a curve in your neck... especially if you're having to bend a half step to hit the correct note. Try flipping the saddles around like SKEETER said, and if that doesn't work I'd have someone look at it.

[SKEETER]

Something else just occurred to me... if you have frets that are very high, it is always possible that you press too hard when doing open chords, forcing the strings sharp.

[MetalMark]

Possibly not on the same wavelength but does what you say apply to a floyd rose?

[SKEETER]

Possibly not on the same wavelength but does what you say apply to a floyd rose?

To the main point. I don't like locking nuts or floating trems. They are more trouble than they are worth. I am a freak for good intonation. The same physics apply, but not the same experiences. Non floating systems tend to be pretty reliable and keep intonation for a long time. I normally retweak my guitars when I am going to record, Locking trems I have seen change constantly.
So in answer, again the same physics apply, but they are in my opinion and entirely different animal. They need MUCH more care and feeding and are far less dependable.
If you are going to use a locking nut to play live, fine tuners on the bridge are a must.

[dcomins]

would a higher quality guitar say PRS or high end Gibson/Fender, or Taylor be more likely to hold intonation longer?

[SKEETER]

First of all, higher price does not neccesarily mean higher quality. Neither does name brand. Most often name brand means you pay for the name and the very expensive advertising.
Better made guitars do intonate better and hold intonation. The only thing that normally changes intonation once it is set is changing string guages or the neck itself changing.
The guitars I have had that hold intonation the best are Japanese, Indonesian, and Korean. I am not real impressed with many of the Chines, american, and mexican made guitars. It is my experience that the necks on the Japanese, Korean, and Indonesian guitars are VERY stable and tend to not change. I think perhaps they are using wood that is well dried out before using it, that is the only explanation I can think of for them staying in tune so well and keeping intonation.
I typically don't have to mess with intonation on my guitars. Once I set it, it tends to stay. I have an Indonesian made Squier Strat that intonates dead on and stays that way.
Acoustic guitars normally stay intonated once they are in, and you use the guage strings they are intonated for. Intonation is also not as critical on acoustics, in that they tend to be less sensitive to string sizes.
Electric guitars have to be intoneted perfectly to sound right. I cannot stand a guitar not well intonated, and can hear someone playing in a band with a poorly intonated guitar, particularly when the play chords up the neck.

Of the domestic guitars you mentioned, I would think that PRS is the mostly likely of them to keep intonation. Every Fender I have had, even the vintage ones, tended to constantly change and needed retweaked. I never have been able to figure out why. Gibsons are a bit better at holding intonation, but I don't buy Gibsons anymore, there are too many other guitars out there I prefer to them.
Of all the guitars I have ever had, it seems the ones made by Samick tend to have the most accurate fret placement and the most stable necks.

[Arlequin Jester]

So if my guitar won't get in tune after I try to intonate it it's pretty safe to say there is something else wrong, but what? :confuse: I think this answer is going to cost me a lot of money I don't have. :rolleye:

[SKEETER]

It could be either your strings, the guitars fret layout (unlikely) or your technique.
Try this experiment. Go up to about fret twelve, and press down lightly on the string, and while the string is ringing out, press harder. You will hear the string go slightly sharper. How hard you press effects tuning! The taller your frets, the more precise you have to be about how hard you press. Tall frets require that you don't press down as hard to fret, which is sometimes hard for guys who have not been playing a long time to master.
I tend to get chords while setting intonation, and checking it not only at fret twelve, but say on the E strings I check it at frets 5 (A) and 10 (D) as well. Some guitars need to have the intonation slightly off at the 12th fret to sound in. I have one guitar that I refretted with rather tall frets, and have to set the B string slightly flat at the 12th fret in order for it to sound in tune when I play a G chord at the 10th fret. Beats the hell out of me why, but it is just that way. Sometimes you can get away with changing the intonation a little to accomodate chords at higher frets without messing up the intonation at the first 3 frets. The most common place I have found for stings to not sound intonated with chords when the guitar shows proper intonation at the 12th fret is between the 7th and 10th fret.
ALSO and this is very important, make sure your pickups are adjusted so that the strings have an even output, sometimes if a string is ringing out, it will sound out of tune. Try playing through a compressor and see how that sounds, a comp will make tones that are ringing out not do so. That might give you a clue as to if a string pole needs adjusted back.
ALSO I have had strings that sound out of tune. Some of the brands of stings out there really suck bad ( and this is not a cheap/expensive thing).
I personally prefer D'Addarios because they intonate well, stay in tune, and they do not corrode easily. They last me a long time and hold the intonation for a long time. Some brands lose intonation as they age. D'Addarios don't seem to.

Also, I do something that makes luthiers cringe, but I get away with it. I set my neck as flat as possible. Most luthiers say you need a slight bow around the 5th fret. I disagree, I make mine as flat as I can without buzzing. That is because of intonation. It only stands to reason that if the stings are at vastly different distances from the frets at various points along it that they would require different technique to be perfectly intonated when playing.
In other words, if the string is further from the fret at the 5th fret than it is at the 7th, then it seems I would need to press less hard at the 7th fret.
This is just my theory, and the way I set guitars up, but it works for me, and other guitarists are impressed with my setups.
I am also quite into middle age, and have arthritic fingers, so I play lightly and set my guitars up with the lowest action possible. Again, that helps intonation, as well.

[wackakapow]

The intonation on my B string is almost a half step flat at the 12th fret. The harmonic octave is about 7mm past the 12th fret, and adjusting the saddle is making next to no difference. This boggles me, as every other string is perfectly intonated and their nut and saddle distances are generally equal to the B. Everyone on this thread seems to know what they're talking about, can anyone help me out?

[SKEETER]

The intonation on my B string is almost a half step flat at the 12th fret. The harmonic octave is about 7mm past the 12th fret, and adjusting the saddle is making next to no difference. This boggles me, as every other string is perfectly intonated and their nut and saddle distances are generally equal to the B. Everyone on this thread seems to know what they're talking about, can anyone help me out?

I think I can help. First of all, don't use harmonics, they will fool you, actually fret the string to check it.
Take the saddle completely one way or the other, whichever way it is closest to, adjust the saddle back all the way the opposite direction and start again.
If that does not get it intonated well, then change the string, it is possible the string has a defect in it's diameter somewhere, or a kink that you cannot see and is not vibrating properly.

[wackakapow]

Changed the string, is working awesome (even on the harmonic as well). Thanks a lot, I built the guitar myself so I was taking it extra-personally. Cheers.

[SKEETER]

Changed the string, is working awesome (even on the harmonic as well). Thanks a lot, I built the guitar myself so I was taking it extra-personally. Cheers.

I am glad that worked.
I have been playing since the mid 60s, and have used a lot of varoius brands of strings. I settled on D'Addarios because I never have problems intonating them. They seem to last a really long time without corroding. I have gotten one defective string in probably, hmmm well longer than 10 years, probably more like 20, that I have used them.
I also like old strings, I don't like strings until they are broke in good, and I leave them on my guitars a long time ( I play out at least once a week, so my strings get a lot of wear). I find that D'Addarios stay in good shape until they break, which is not common. I can generally get six months of playing regular out of my strings. Granted, I do a lot of work to my guitars to make sure there are no places for a lot of friction causing strings to break, and I play rock era music, so I really don't play the guitar hard, I let the amp get my punch.
My fingers have a lot of oil in them, and a lot of brands of strings corrode really bad when I use them.
My strings seem to hold their tone real well, once they are broke in they don't change, the tone stays even and they still intonate well.
I swear by D'Addarios, by far the best string I have used. I should probably write them a letter and tell them how much I tell others about their stings. I cannot rave about them enough.

[Mr. Boston]

Okay here's a Mr. B. question: what if your guitar's set up for slide? You're going to have thicker strings on it, AND the action will be really high. Wouldn't that affect how it would sound to play the 12th fret, since when you're playing slide you won't be touching the fret board? So how would I do this? Would I play the open string, then place the slide directly over the fret wire marking the octave and test that way? Without actually pushing the string down into the fretboard?

[SKEETER]

I play a lot of slide, and play it on VERY low action. I have done it for years and developed a touch that lets me get away with it. BUT, if I was going to set a guitar up specifically for slide to record with ( which I am going to do) I would raise the nut slightly, and raise the action slightly. But not a lot, just enough so light pressure with the slide does not cause the strings to connect with the frets. When a guitar is set up for slide, I don't normaly play it without a slide. The intonation won't be close enough for me, because the strings are so high that you have to press them down far enough to wreck intonation.
ALSO... when you play slide, the trick to having slide sound smooth and not noisy is to cut your tone control back. That makes all the difference in the world between sounding good and sounding like *****. If the guitar is too bright, it will not only sound scratchy and noisey, it will sound out of tune.

Just set the intonation as you normally would, and when you use the slide, fret the slide right OVER the fret instead of behind it. Right on top of the fret. ( Once you are use to the guitar, you will know exactly where on the fret you need to be for it to be in tune). On my guitars, I fret right on top of the fret, just to the back side of it slightly, because of how my guitars are set up. That is because my action is VERY low so when I press down to fret I am not stretching the string far. The higher the action, the further forward over the fret the slide needs to be to compensate for how far down you had to press the string in order to get it to intonate.
That seems to work for me.