Some Mode and Scale help....

[Helldogg]

Hello all!!

I have a couple questions about scales. What are the Minor scales? I know Aeolian is one what are the others?

The other question is a little hard to explain, I have these bokks the Guitar Grimoire by Adam Kadmon, great books learned a lot from them.

But why are scales in that book different from ones I see other places?

It always seems that there are more or less notes in the different modes.. Why? I mean the scale pattern is basically the same, but there are omitted notes.

What does that mean? Also, 12345678 is a Ionian but why is the Ionian I see have more notes than that?

Please help if you can I hope that this makes sense to who ever reads this!!

Thanks!

[StoneDragon]

Hey Helldog... welcome to the jam!

Any scale that has a b3 interval is a minor scale, including but not limited to:

Aeolian (natural minor) - 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Dorian - 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Phrygian - 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Harmonic Minor - 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7
Melodic Minor - 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7
Minor pentatonic - 1 b3 4 5 b7
Blues Scale - 1 b3 4 b5 5 b7
etc....


Without seeing the books you're talking about, I'm not sure what you are asking about the difference in scales. It could be that you are mistaking the pattern for the scale.

The Ionian mode is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8, but those intervals can be found at many different locations on the guitar fingerboard and played with many different finger/string combinations. There's not just one pattern that is the scale.

Think of it this way.

The C Ionian scale is built from the notes C D E F G A B. Those notes can be found all over the guitar neck. no matter where you play those notes, which strings you play them on or which fingers you use to play them, you're still playing the C Ionian scale.

[Helldogg]

Thank you for the help Stone Dragon. I was checking out the patterns on the lessons site and noticed that the patterns I've learned and the ones here are different.

By really looking at them I noticed that they are close, but it seems some of them are missing notes.

Here is what a Ionian mode looks like in F (At least how I learned it)

e|-|-| |x|-|x| |x|
B|-|-| |x|-|x| |x|
G|-|x| |x|-|x|
D|-|x| |x|-|x|
A|x|-| |x|-|x|
E|x|-| |x|-|x|

Does this make sense? I hope so!! The other modes are about the same, different fingerings from what I've seen around and here.

If you need to see more I'll put more. Thanks!

[StoneDragon]

Sure.... that's just one of many ways to finger that scale. That fingering is usually refered to as "3 notes per string".

Once you have the scale down like that, you need to learn how to play the same scale all over the neck... not just one pattern or position. The same goes for every scale... learn it all over the neck in every key. If you are playing a song that requires that F scale, you don't want to be limited to the first fret for your solo... you want to be able to play up and down the entire fingerboard.

[geoffreyt]

Stone, please help me here. If we learn to play this scale as discribed above and then move it to another part of the fretboard, is it still the same scale? An Ionian played with a root of C is all natural notes. But if played off of any other root it is not all natural notes. Please give me some insight as to how to use the modes. Use one pattern and move from one position to another. Or, ... just how does it work? Thank you.

[StoneDragon]

Yes... if you take that pattern and move it... say up two frets... then it is still an Ionian scale, but it would be in G instead of F.

That's only half of the equation though... there are six other patterns that you can learn that will still be the F Ionian scale, but they will be in different locations on the fingerboard.

Any scale can and should be learned all over the fingerboard for every key.

Think of it this way. No matter where you place your hand on the guitar neck, you have easy access to the entire chromatic scale (every note possible). That means that no matter where you place your hand, you should be able to play any chord, scale or arpeggio in any key.

Check out my modes lesson (http://www.zentao.com/guitar/modes/) for a more thorough explanation... especially the diagrams at the bottom of Part III (http://www.zentao.com/guitar/modes/modes-3.html).

[StoneDragon]

Another approach would be like this:

Say we are in the key of C and want to play the Ionian mode (same thing as the good old major scale). The first thing is to see every C note on the fingerboard. Then you learn to see the rest of the scale around each one of those C notes.

Eventually, you want ot be able to play the scale starting with any finger on any one of those C notes.

Now, you don't have to know your scales this well before you ever try to use them. If you know one pattern or position, then you should get to work figuring out when, where, and how to use that scale. Knowing the scale all over the entire fingerboard is something that you work up to gradually.

[Helldogg]

Thanks for the help!! But how many different fingerings are there for an Ionian mode.

You mentioned the one I know as the "3 note per string" how many more ways are there?

And am I to assume that its all applicable to every mode??

Thanks again.

[geoffreyt]

I have been working on memorizing the 7 modes of the major scale. Im 6/7 ths of the way there. It will take me a while longer to know them all backwards and forwards and to really be comfortable. I use the 3 notes per string method and practice by playing the mode from the root note on the 6th string down to the last note on the 1st string. So, the pattern occurs a bit more than twice. It so happens that I just marked all the C notes in the 1st octave on my guitar. Trying to get a better grasp of the notes and where they lie. I realize that in each key the root occurs 3 times and I am aware of where they are. Easy. So I am looking at being more able to easily find a root note to play from on different parts of the fretboard. Im trying to bring all this into focus without a teacher. You all have sure been obliging as I ask for help. THANKS. I will seek a teacher when I have a few skills under my belt. By the way. Im puzzled by your statement "Eventually, you want to be able to play the scale starting with any finger on any one of those C notes". Why would I start on any finger beside the index finger? Any suggestions for me?

[This message has been edited by geoffreyt (edited July 27, 2000).]

[geoffreyt]

I think I know now why you said "any finger" . If the scale begins and ends with itself, you will be right in line to start again with the last finger used. I played the 8 notes of the Ionian mode from the 6th srting, 3rd fret and found on the 2nd repitition the last 2 notes seened to move up a half step? I have not figured that out yet. But I am seeing a new avanue to practice. Thanks! Hope to hear more soon.

[StoneDragon]

Helldog,

There are as many ways to finger the Ionian scale as you could possibly imagine, but most "systems" advocate either 5 or 7 different patterns. I advocate 7 because the 5 pattern breakdown leaves you with two holes on the fingerboard. I don't think you should have any area of the fingerboard that you don't know thoroughly.

If you use 3 notes per string, then you get these 7 patterns for the ionian scale. I'll use the key of F but the same patterns can be moved to play in any key. R is the root note (F in this case):


1st fret

e| |-|-|x|-|x|x|
B| |-|-|x|-|x|R|
G| |-|x|x|-|x|-|
D| |-|x|R|-|x|-|
A| |x|-|x|-|x|-|
E| |R|-|x|-|x|-|


3rd fret

|-|-|x|x|-|x|
|-|-|x|R|-|x|
|x|-|x|-|x|-|
|R|-|x|-|x|-|
|x|-|x|-|x|-|
|x|-|x|x|-|-|


5th fret

|-|x|-|x|-|x|
|-|R|-|x|-|x|
|x|-|x|-|x|-|
|x|-|x|x|-|-|
|x|-|x|R|-|-|
|x|x|-|x|-|-|


6th fret

|-|-|x|-|x|-|x|
|-|-|x|-|x|x|-|
|-|x|-|x|R|-|-|
|-|x|x|-|x|-|-|
|-|x|R|-|x|-|-|
|x|-|x|-|x|-|-|


8th fret

|-|-|x|-|x|R|
|-|-|x|x|-|x|
|-|x|R|-|x|-|
|x|-|x|-|x|-|
|R|-|x|-|x|-|
|x|-|x|-|x|-|


10th fret

|-|-|x|R|-|x|
|-|x|-|x|-|x|
|R|-|x|-|x|-|
|x|-|x|-|x|-|
|x|-|x|x|-|-|
|x|-|x|R|-|-|


12th fret

|-|R|-|x|-|x|
|-|x|-|x|-|x|
|x|-|x|x|-|-|
|x|-|x|R|-|-|
|x|x|-|x|-|-|
|x|R|-|x|-|-|


13th fret (same as 1st fret)

|-|-|x|-|x|x|
|-|-|x|-|x|R|
|-|x|x|-|x|-|
|-|x|R|-|x|-|
|x|-|x|-|x|-|
|R|-|x|-|x|-|

And yes... the same thing goes for all of the modes and any other scale.

geoffreyt,

The reason for learning the scales starting off any finger on any available root note has to do with limitation. You don't want to limit yourself to only playing off of the index finger or at a certain fret... you want to be free to play anywhere that the music might dictate rather than dictating that the music has to follow whatever scale pattern you might know. Eventually you reach a point where the whole neck is just one large scale pattern and you are free to play anywhere on that neck that you want.

[geoffreyt]

Im a bit in the dark here. The above patterns, to me, represent the 7 modes of the Major Scale. You have labeled them variations of the Ionian Mode. I guess this is the way the patterns fall out so to speak. How is any particular mode, say C Ionian, transposed to another key? How would we know the pattern to use in another key without sitting down and finding the next sharp or flat or whole note of the mode being used? Hope this is not rambling. Thanks!

[geoffreyt]

Maybe Im trying to read to much into this. Each of the 7 modes of the major scale has a root note associated with it. Ionian =C, Dorina =D and so on. No matter where the mode is played, its played from the root associated with it. So, if a mode has 1 flat in it, one of the keys it can be played in will be a flat. Simple as that?

[StoneDragon]

The above patterns, to me, represent the 7 modes of the Major Scale.

You're right... but you only have half of the story. Each one of those patterns can be any one of the 7 modes... it all depends on how you use the pattern and which note within the pattern you start and stop on.

How is any particular mode, say C Ionian, transposed to another key? How would we know the pattern to use in another key without sitting down and finding the next sharp or flat or whole note of the mode being used?

You have to know where the root note is inside of each pattern (that's why I labeled them "R" in the above diagrams). If you need to play these patterns in the key of A, then you simply move any one or all of the patterns up or down the neck until the "R's" within the pattern(s) line up with the A notes on the guitar. The pattern itself will take care of the sharps and flats that you need... so long as you get the pattern in the right spot on the fingerboard.

Now, the way I have them written out above is just for Ionian. Every one of those patterns is an F Ionian scale if you start and stop on the root note as I have laid it out. If you wanted to play them in A, you would have to move each pattern up 4 frets so that the R in each pattern is an A note.

Each of the 7 modes of the major scale has a root note associated with it. Ionian =C, Dorina =D and so on.

This is true... but only in a relative sense. You need to know the modes in both relative and parallel fashion. In fact, in order to use the modes effectively in your playing, the parallel fashion is most important.

Relative:

C Ionian = D Dorian = E Phrygian = F Lydian = G Mixolydian = A Aeolian = B Locrian

Parallel:

C Ionian = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 = C D E F G A B

C Dorian = 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 = C D Eb F G A Bb

C Phrygian = 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 = C Db Eb F G Ab Bb

C Lydian = 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 = C D E F# G A B

C Mixolydian = 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 = C D E F G A Bb

C Aeolian = 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 = C D Eb F G Ab Bb

C Locrian = 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 = C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb

This is actually how you will use modes in your playing.

Let's say that you and I are jamming, and you play a chord progression that centers on A. Now, I hear this chord progression and think to myself, "the Lydian scale would sound great over that." In order to play an A lydian scale, I need to be able to see where my root notes are on the fingerboard and then be able to see the correct notes and/or intervals based off of that root note to make the A Lydian sound.

Let's say that the first A note that jumps out at me is the 5th fret on the low E-string. Ok... I've got a root note located... now I need to make the scale...

The Lydian mode is 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7, so if 1=A, then 2=B, 3=C#, #4=D#, 5=E, 6=F#, and 7=G#...

So the A lydian scale = A B C# D# E F# G#

I could also ask myself which mode is Lydian?... it's the 4th mode.

A is the 4th note of which major scale?.... it's the 4th note of the E major scale.

So if I play the E major scale it will give me the notes I need for the A Lydian sound.

If I've done my homework and practiced playing all the scales and modes in every key starting on any string with any finger, then all I have to do is look at the guitar neck and the A lydian scale patterns will be sitting right there... all over the fingerboard. I can decide to play off of the open A string instead of the 5th fret, or maybe I want to play off of the 14th fret of the G string. I can just start jamming rather than spending time trying to figure out which scale to use.

[geoffreyt]

OK I will! Thanks

[geoffreyt]

Stone Dragon thank you for all this great help. I have studied what you have laid out and there is a hell of a lot of goodstuff there. I am/will endeavoring to learn the Major Scale modes in parelell now. It will take me a couple of weeks just to make sure Ive got all the notes correct. Im just barely able to play them in relative fashion. Holy cow thats a few weeks work anyhow. As I do this I said what can I do to use them as I begin to know them. So I looked at the fret board and said I need to at least know where all the natural notes are in the 1st octave. I thought maybe since any mode played in the 3 string fashion is played in 6 frets, that maybe the pattern of natural note occurances repeated every 1/2 octave. NOT! Oh well thats the way it is. Again thanks for the help here.

[StoneDragon]

Just keep working with it... there's no rush. At one point, something inside you will click and the lightbulb in your head will turn on... then you'll see the fingerboard start to open up for you.

[wizard815]

ok, you guys lost me. how do you possibly remember all these scales?? I stated in another forum that i have played for a few years , mostly just repeating what ive seen other players doing. I finally decided to learn the theory behind it all to better understand what im actually playing. I can read the tabs of the scales but they often confuse me because they show the scale on different positions on the neck so all i see is abunch of numbers all over the neck. i have no idea where one begins or ends. i also dont understand the way stonedragon wrote them above. can you please explain in more detail as im a beginner at this theory thing and really dont know any of it. thanks.

[StoneDragon]

Check out the theory lessons (http://www.zentao.com/guitar/theory/). I've tried to lay everything out in a logical order within those lessons.

Getting a grasp on theory goes something like this:

Learn the names of the notes all over the fingerboard.
Learn how the major scale is constructed and then learn to play the major scale in any key all over the fingerboard.
Learn to see the major scale as intervals.
Learn how to construct chords using intervals and learn to play those chords all over the fingerboard in any key.
Learn how the major scale is broken down into various major, minor and diminished chords (chord scale) and learn to recognize this chord scale in any key.
Learn how the major scale can be turned into modes and learn the various pentatonic scales and arpeggios associated with each mode.
Learn to apply the above material to songs you know and/or use the information to write your own songs.

Once you have all of this happening pretty well, then do the same thing with the Harmonic Minor scale and the Melodic Minor scale. Then you will be pretty well set as far as "modern theory" is concerned. Then you can spend the rest of your life trying to figure out exactly what this stuff means to you and your own playing.

As far as "how you're gonna remember all of this", that usually comes down to recognizing patterns and shapes on the fingerboard and basing new stuff off of things you already know. It takes time and a lot of working with it to "get it down", but like I said earlier, there's no rush. Learning the guitar is not a contest. It's an investment of time, energy and attention.

[MrSamson]

Learning the guitar is not a contest. It's an investment of time, energy and attention.

Well said. It takes time, let it take time. I certainly am trying to LET it take time, but you wanna always better, perhaps the biggest competition arrises from the most unforgiving critique of all, yourself.

I was frustrated the other day at how slow things were going...and this and that was not happening...and then I remembered my first 6 months, and how incredibly far I had actually came in such a short time really.

Everyone's brain is different, the lightbulb going off finally happens for a reason I think...it is absorbed or things make sense when your brain is READY...and everyone's brain is different.

Keep practicing like a mother, I know I am, just try not to beat yourself up over it...and remind me to do the same.

http://www.zentao.com/ubb/smilies/devil.gif

By the way Stone, I should be home soon, and should have my own internet access again in about 2 weeks...

[Helldogg]

Wow thank you very much Stone!! I'm still a little confused but its great to know that I can a get some very straight answers here!

[MrSamson]

We are ALL still a little confused...

(in general I mean)

http://www.zentao.com/ubb/smilies/devil.gif

[StoneDragon]

Helldogg,

Keep asking questions until you get the answers you need.

[Mechpro]

Stone Dragon: I thought I understood modes until I read your post

Question: If a song is centered on A (the chord A = A - C# - E)
and I want to play Lydian over it.
Why is Lydian the E major scale and not the D major scale?

Lydian is the fourth mode which makes it major and the fourth note in the scale of A (because A is the chord which the progression centers on) is D. So isn't a Lydian mode = D major because D is the fourth note in the scale of A ??

[Fendershredder]

If you want to play lydian over something, you want to play the lydian that corresponds with the TONIC note. If you're trying to play Lydian over an A major chord, you want A lydian. D lydian is the relative lydian mode to A major. I think you're crossing your wires here.

Distinguish relative mode from parallel mode.

[mcmurray]

See if this helps guys, it should answer most of your questions: http://www.jsguitarforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56336