Soundmen and Guitar amps...

[Stan Janssen]

The few times I gigged with my band, I always had the same experience. I'm quite the tone-guy in our band; always trying to nail those small nuances, those little things that give it the edge for me...

Like when playing a U2 song, I spend time setting my delay, chorus, modulation, gain (/overdrive), eq, my guitar settings, everything. Then, when we're building up, I ask the soundman to put an MD421 in front of my AD30. "Oh, yeah I have got MD421s". Then, "oh, I used all the MD421s on the drums, but here's a Shure 58beta". Next thing I know is my guitar sounding just too bright and brittle out of the PA, all of those little nuances, the little tonal characters of the sound I created are all lost. I really dislike this, because I can't control my sound, I don't know what to expect until we're playing the song. Will it be too bright, too bassy, too undefined?

It's really annoying, but there's little I can do about it... Perhaps I should buy my own mic for the amp and take it with me on a gig?

Also, as I've experienced with all sound engineers, they 'know it all best'. If you propose something, like: could I get a little less high eq on the guitar track? It's like: "leave that to me, I'm experienced" or something like that...

It's just annoying that I can't sound the way I want...


What do you do about this?

Stan.

[stratman50th]

My brother in law runs sound. He's one of those guys who say "it's my job to make you sound good". He also says that he does it his way or not at all.

[Tingly]

I try not to be too crazy about the nuances. Partly because "tinkering with the tone" can become a never ending loop process and drive everyone around you completely nuts.

The best guitarists I ever played with have seemed nonchalant about "the tone." I think it was becasue they were so confident in their playing ability, they just set up the way they always did and they knew that the tone would take care of itself.

Plus, to be honest, in my experience, it's hard enough to get the whole band to the venue, sober, and then get set up and ready, never mind the nuances!

[76Strat]

lol sobe we have a rule ( most of us dont drink at all ) but the ones who do drink know not to come to recording sessions jam sessions or shows drunk or else they are out

[ForeverWritten8]

stan, i would suggest that you do bring your own mic, so you won't have to fool with your tone while setting up for the gig, you can have your settings already tweaked at the practice place before the show and then just set up and plug the mic in and then you just go, i think it would make it a lot easier, cuz your sound would already be the way you want and you could just tell the sound dude not to mess with your EQ settings...and if he doesn't listen, well then there's life for ya...i personally want to be either a sound engineer or a recording engineer and i'll try to be as personable and cooperative with the musicians as possible. but i would try bringing my own mic, so you know what you have to work with...good luck!

[scott powell]

get your own mic, tell the soundman waht EQ settings you like,and go from there. also be advised that you may come up with the 'pefect' sound in practice,but when you get to the gig alot of room factors can make your sound no longer pefect. bear in mind as well when you have the whole band pumping thru the PA the most important aspect is to have the frequencies match, and what you consider a 'peferct' sound may sound really bad when mixed with the bass,drums, keys and vocals.
and the sound guy is right: a 58 on the drums sounds bloody awful

[Lazy Bee]

If you go wireless and get out front during soundcheck you can help your soundman find what you're looking for. Be reasonable and understand you may not achieve exactly what you looking for. What your cabinet sounds like will not automatically translate to pa speakers that have drivers/horns and 15s, 18s whatever. Lots of other things are going on as well. The guys trying to get the whole band to sound balanced. The crack of the snare may be competing for space at the same time you're looking to get that perfect nuance. Sometimes when the "band" sounds best your guitar may suffer a bit.

It's an age old struggle. Be cool with your soundman and he should be cool with you in return. A live performance is a tough place in comparison to the studio or practicing by yourself to get the perfect tone you seek.

Edit...If your soundman refuses to work with you , you may want to consider replacing him.

[Stan Janssen]

Yeah, I am reasonable and never argue with the sound man... Yeah I think I should just do a better sound check before the concert, stand in front of the band like you said...

I understand that the guitar sound will never be the way I like it to be, but the way it sounded during the last gigs (I mean, an AC30TB sound sounding like a fuzz can isn't really helping) was just not cool...

It's just that all of the hard work, and one of the reasons it sounds that good at rehearsals, is all not coming out during a gig, wondered what you guys do about it...

Thanks for the replies!

[genereaux]

Tingly makes an excellent point about the never ending loop...

and Scott Powell makes a good point about the mix. As guitarists, we're tone-centric about our gear, but not until a few years of doing it do we think about our tone in relation to the 'big picture'. You may really like that low end in your guitar sound, but on CD or in a concert mix, your guitar sound is probably being overshadowed by the bass, and making for a flat/dull mix.

And to clarify, are you not happy with mix coming out of the mains, or the monitor mix? Those are two wholly independant beasts right there. As well as two(usually) different guys.

But yes, it's a common enough practice to have your own mic. But keep this in mind;
You've taken a lot of time finding the right gear to get your sound. The right amp, the right cab etc..
The world of live sound re-enforcement puts the world of guitar gear to SHAME. Speaker/amp combinations, consoles, EQ's, compressor, gates, splitters, snakes, mic pre-amps etc....
Standing 3-15 from your guitar rig, your tone may sound great. But running through the PA system, out the mains and into the room, that same tone may need to be tweaked a little to sound good in that room (and/or through that gear)

But sound guys/girls can have egos too, and I've heard a fair number of 'em say (to quote one in particlar): "Thats a $175,000 dollar PA, I'm not gonna let the guitarists' $50 pedal make me sound like @#$%!"

So it's helpful to keep the sound guy/girl on your side. Let them know what you want and as your dialing in your rig, stay vocal about how you like/don't like what you hear.
And if you can, DO go out to front of house and hear what it sounds like from there. Where-ever FOH (the main mixing board) is, will tend to be where the best mix is- because that's where the sound man is.

Sean

[Vintage Picker]

Unless you're standing where the sound man is, what you're hearing and what he's hearing won't be the same. I'd trust his judgement. Unless he's a couple dork.

[fastvfr]

My hobby in my long-ago barhopping days was to help my soundman buddy set up for club gigs.

He wasn't a ****, but he did insist that he 'run the show'.

He had to.

The band he worked with was made up of adult infants who always *****ed that THEIR instrument or mike was not loud enough.

Prima donna BS from the old school, in other words.

If it hadn't been for ol' Heavy Kevy, that band would have sucked even harder!

Oh, and don't tick your soundman off. He can make or break your sound, you know.

[Minor Seventh]

Every location you play has "its" sound. One room might sound completely different from another. So personally I would not worry so much about the nuances. I know it's tempting, but no matter what the soundman does, these small nuances will seldom be perceived by the audience. Either because the audience is generally not to perceptive concerning things like that or because the venue in itself (room sound!) distorts those nuances.

And yes, you can bring your own mic ... but you have to face it: what the audience hears of your sound is still not something you control. The soundman still controls how he mixes your sound (how loud it will be, what eq-settings will be used, if there will be more reverb on it or not).

I have (almost) stopped worrying about this. I take a look at how the soundman handles things and then decide whether I trust him or not. If I trust him, I can relax. The sound the audience will be hearing might not be 100% the sound I imagined, but I trust that the soundman will dial in at least a good guitar sound.

If I don't trust him ... there's not much I can do ... so why worry? Most of the time, I have at least one person in the audience that I trust and if that person tells me during songs that the sound for the audience is not good, I'll either send that person to talk to the soundman or have a talk with him during a break.
But always in a polite way. If you get on the wrong side of the soundman, you blew it.

[refin]

The soundman is there to serve.The board is an instrument,contrary to what some believe,but only to the extent that it is to make your hard earned and well rehearsed band sound louder.Whatever mics are used should only transfer the stage sound accurately.
Some soundman have a "sound" that they get in their head,and they paint every band with the same color.Nuances should be the soundman's job too.Every once in awhile I do a session for someone where they have a questionable(to me) part that they want me to play....I don't think it fits,maybe too much,maybe dissonant.But my job is to put their project ahead of my ego.My name will still go on the liner notes---but a soundman is invisible to the audience!If there's too much bass or volume,most people blame the band,not the soundman.
We all remember when the soundman for a band was usually a friend of the band,not really qualified but willing.
.
If I hire a crew to paint my house,I choose the paint,not them.

[fastvfr]

Well, in this case, Kevin was actually college-educated in acoustics and electronics; he held a degree in each from Wayne State University.

He really should have added a minor in Abnormal Psyche, IMHO.

The 'band members' were just a group of guys with personality problems and big chips on their shoulders, all of whom wanted to get rich and famous yesterday. Thus, they all wanted THEIR sound to stand out...which does not work.

None of them were businessmen, and it showed. Most of them still lived with mom and dad while in their thirties, if that tells you anything. :rolleye:

Most of what Heavy Kevy did, beyond setting the amps properly for the room, was to try to find a happy medium between the settings the players liked to use during practice in the garage and the board settings that were needed to get decent acoustics in these little Midwestern dive bars.

I'd like to add that none of them but Kevin had any inkling as to the nuances of setting up the amps and the settings to 'dial in' the sound to the venue. All they did was gripe about how their instrument was no louder than the OTHER instruments. :confuse: :rotf:

I wouldn't have had the patience for it, personally, but it was kinda fun while it lasted if I ignored all the infighting and personality clashes. Which was sort of weird; these guys only did covers--they played NO original music, so it wasn't creative differences, that's for sure.

Oh, BTW last I heard, ol' Kevy had taken work as a counsellor at a group home for mentally ******ed adults.

A sensible career choice, given his years of experience in wrangling ******ed musicians... ;) :rotf: ;)

[spinn]

#1 on the priority of the PA soundman is to autheticate the sounds comming from the artist, and then blend. if he is not allowing a authetic sound, and spray painting mona lisa's, he has no idea what he is doing.

i dont know your situation. the guy sounds like a jerk. i have issues with my drummer, and know some people are just trying to be difficult. they will try to make it rain on someones sunny day.

do you really need a sound man?

[scott powell]

[/QUOTE]do you really need a sound man?[/QUOTE]


YES! its so much better having someone out front mixing sound. the sound 25 feet deep into the room is VASTLY different than what we hear onstage. my soundman gets a cut of the pay equal to those of us playing. i dont always agree 100% of the time on how he mixes, but he makes us sound good consistently,regardless of the room. its a relief not to have to worry about anthing other than making music