Help! Need some authoritative opinions about fingering.

[Kirkl]

Suppose you are playing the modes of the major scales up and down the neck in "boxes" -- patterns that span four or five frets in each fingerboard position. In many cases you will be able to dedicate one finger to each fret in the pattern (e.g. the third finger always frets on the third fret of the pattern). For example, here's the Locrian mode of the C major scale in the 7th position:

E |X|X| |X|
B | |X| |X|
G |X| |X|X|
D |X| |X|X|
A |X|X| |X|
E |X|X| |X|

For any particular major scale, however, some positions will demand that you finger across 5 frets, not just four. So, given all that, here is my question:

WHAT IS THE BEST FINGER TO USE TO PLAY THE MIDDLE NOTE WHEN THE PATTERN FOR A PARTICULAR STRING IS |X| |X| |X|?

Using the ring finger means an awkward stretch with the little finger (at least for me it feels awkward). Using the middle finger makes for a much easier stretch but now I find that, because the middle finger has to make a decision about where to go (it's not dedicated to the third fret) I make more frequent errors.

Any advice from some really fast and accurate players out there who don't have any kind of repetitive stress injury (or who do and can help the rest of us not get one)?


Thanks a lot

[guitarteacher]

The best choice is the second finger, but it is not out of Position.
(here is a link explaining Position; http://www.tampaguitarlessons.com/lefthandposition.htm )

The most efficient manner of fingering over five frets is to use the Position of the four highest frets and reach back with the first finger. For example, if you need to play notes in the first, third, and fifth frets, you would set up in Second Position (thumb behind the third fret) and reach back to the first fret with the first finger.

Good Luck.

GT

[kernix]

I personally never do that unless I'm moving from one position to another, in which case I slide up with my pinky or ring and slide back with my index or middle finger. I'm not a big fan of the 3-notes-per-string system - I think the CAGED system is a no-brainer and oh so easy to learn, play and visualize.

[Kirkl]

Thanks a lot. Let me make sure I understand what you are saying...

If I do choose to stretch the little finger (rather than use what you suggest as a more efficient way, which is to arrange the pattern so that the first finger reaches back instead) then it's not out of position because I'm actually changing position? Does my thumb move forward?

I'll relook at my scale patterns and see about reaching back with the first instead of forward with the little finger.

[Kirkl]

KERNIX, I understand what you are saying about the GAGED system. It IS nice and straightforward. I guess I should explain more about what I'm trying to accomplish...

First, let me say that, although I've been playing guitar for years (42 of them!) I have recently been attacking it with a new interest and really trying to improve rather than just keep making the same old mistakes I've been making all my life. There are styles I want to play that I just can't make work with my old three finger blues patterns.

Specifically, I'm really trying to learn jazz improvisation, playing appropriate scales over each chord. This is quite a stretch for me. The way that I'm approaching it is (and no one told me to do this, I just came up with it on my own, so it may not be the best way), for any simple piece of music that I can play over with only three or five scales, to figure out, for three or four key positions, where all of the scales are, without changing position, so that they are all under my hand and I can improvise freely between them. (As I get better, I'll work at getting "out of the box" and moving more freely over the fretboard, but right now I need the crutch of learning little limited patterns.) Because of that I sometimes need patterns that are not found in the CAGE system (you need at least two more to cover every mode from a position, I think).

That said, should I make the CAGED patterns the ones I use for the five modes that they cover?

GUITARTEACHER, if, for example, you were playing the Myxolidian mode in the GAGED system (based on "A"), what fingering would you use?

(I know this all probably seems pretty basic to you guys, but I'm worried about getting in to more bad habits.)

Thanks a lot guys!

[kernix]

First off - what do you mean by "...There are styles I want to play that I just can't make work with my old three finger blues patterns..."?

ARe you saying you are not using your pinky? Not good.

"...Because of that I sometimes need patterns that are not found in the CAGE system..."

Like what or which scales. True, you have to step out of position like the C position of an E minor pentatonic:

---5--7--
---5----8
-4----7--
---5--7--
---5--7--
---5--7--


But that IS THE CAGED system! Looks how it's actually an A dorian mode without A's b3 or M6.

"(...you need at least two more to cover every mode from a position, I think)..."

No:

F Lydian/E Locrian:

0-1---3-
0-1---3-
0---2---
0---2-3-
0-1---3-
0-1---3-

G dorian:

---3---5-6-
---3---5-6-
-2-3---5--
-2-3---5--
---3---5--
---3---5-6-

A phrygian / Bb Lydian

-5-6---8-
-5-6---8-
-5---7---
-5---7-8-
-5---7-8-
-5-6---8-

C lydian

---8---10---
---8---10-11
-7---9-10---
-7-8---10---
-7-8---10---
---8---10---

D aeolian

---10----12-13-
---10-11----13-
-9-10----12----
---10----12----
---10----12-13-
---10----12-13-

"...where all of the scales are, without changing position, so that they are all under my hand and I can improvise freely between them...."

Every scale, and Every chord is always just beneath your fingers - you just need to know in what shape/form.

For now I'm a box player trying to figure it all out - I'm not ready to slide easelessly over the fretboard - I am only practicing the major scale and major pent together AND the minor pent, natural min & blues scale together - but I practice a 1-4-5 progression in two related positions - like the 1 in the E voice followed by the 4 in the A voice right below - that way my 5 chord shape is only 2 frets up from the 4 chord shape - AND for the maj pent I lead off with a maj chord strum - major scale - a maj7 or maj9 shape - same for the minor scales.

Next I'll be moving to G shape for the 1 chord and C shapes right below for the 4 & 5 chords. Last I'll do maybe A shape on the 1 and D shapes for the 4 & 5 since they are pretty much down one string..

As for which method you should learn - I can't answer that. I think jazz lessons from a guy wat back and he taught me the 3-note-per-string system - that DID NOT click with me - I could not visualize the shapes - CAGED for me works - for you? Whatever makes sense to you - you are the one afterall who has to do all the work.

Jim

[kernix]

doh - that's C mixolydian.

[Kirkl]

Thanks again Kernix. I obviously need to do more thinking. I'm kind of fumbling around, trying to find the easiest patterns to learn, one at a time. I probably need to approach this more systematically. I found a link to a summary of the CAGED system (at http://www.highcountryguitar.com/). It looks pretty easy, but I should probably try to figure out what all the alternative systems are and make an informed choice.

I do use my pinky, now. For years I didn't. I just started taking guitar seriously again this year and I'm trying to remedy a whole bunch of bad habits. (I may have injured my pinky in the process--it's growing a bump on the big knuckle, probably from so much unaccustomed use. Gotta see a doctor...)

[kernix]

Yeah, that's a great site although if I recall they don't do all the simple scales - think they only do major scale and minor pent.

Alt systems: of freetboard visualization there's the only 3 I know of: 3-note-per-string, CAGED, and Zone sytem. I suppose some peeps with perfect pitch would say just to memorize the sounds of chord types and modes, but CAGED is it for me.

Pinky - like if you havne't ran in a while - you'll hurt your knees if you try to run a lot every day - work the pinky - work chordal stuff when it gets sore - but keep working it - I use it for 2 and 3 note barres all the time.


For me I'm going to start horizonatl movement once I'm done with my other way - I'll work 1-4-5 chord progs but in positions right next to each other - like a A7 in the E voice at the 5th fret, a D7 in the G shape starting at the 7th fret - that way I'll work from the 5th to the 10th frets - 2 positions - not sure what I sohould do with the 5 chord.

LAter and good luck!

[livinastro]

Suppose you are playing the modes of the major scales up and down the neck in "boxes" -- patterns that span four or five frets in each fingerboard position. In many cases you will be able to dedicate one finger to each fret in the pattern (e.g. the third finger always frets on the third fret of the pattern). For example, here's the Locrian mode of the C major scale in the 7th position:

E |X|X| |X|
B | |X| |X|
G |X| |X|X|
D |X| |X|X|
A |X|X| |X|
E |X|X| |X|

For any particular major scale, however, some positions will demand that you finger across 5 frets, not just four. So, given all that, here is my question:

WHAT IS THE BEST FINGER TO USE TO PLAY THE MIDDLE NOTE WHEN THE PATTERN FOR A PARTICULAR STRING IS |X| |X| |X|?

Using the ring finger means an awkward stretch with the little finger (at least for me it feels awkward). Using the middle finger makes for a much easier stretch but now I find that, because the middle finger has to make a decision about where to go (it's not dedicated to the third fret) I make more frequent errors.

Any advice from some really fast and accurate players out there who don't have any kind of repetitive stress injury (or who do and can help the rest of us not get one)?


Thanks a lot

I think its just personal choice and depends on the stretch and what comes before and after,I use both the ring and pinky for three notes on a string and also my 2nd and 3rd,I have come to a point where certain factors determain what fingering I use,but it would take too long to explain.Sometimes I even slide through the first note.

[guitarteacher]

GUITARTEACHER, if, for example, you were playing the Myxolidian mode in the GAGED system (based on "A"), what fingering would you use?


In that particular example, I would shift up a half step (ascending) on the second string to play the two highest strings a Position higher. I ALWAYS prefer position playing to stretching fingers outside of Position (it's a classical thing).

GT

[Kirkl]

GUITARTEACHER,

Thanks again. It's starting to make sense to me--I was working under the misconception that a "position" meant the same place on all six strings. You think of a "position" as a place on one string, yes? "Position" means placing your hand so that all four fingers own a fret? That makes sense now...

I was origninally trained classically (40 years ago) but I can't remember the details (and I was just a kid, so I probably just retained a little of the practice, not the reasoning behind it).

[I've always thought that it was funny how so many guitarists think of tiny little thin necks as "fast". I've always been more comfortable on big necks with flat radiuses, probably because that's what I learned on. Nobody is faster and more precise than a great classical guitarist.]

In terms of fretboard visualization, is there a widely accepted system for classical guitarists? (In terms of fretboard visualization, I found lots of references to the CAGED system that KERNIX mentioned, but not a really good site for the 3-note-per-string system and nothing yet for the Zone system.)

LIVINASTRO

You don't find that not sticking to the same fingering slows you down in really fast passages? I guess I could imagine a time when I get that good, but it won't be soon. I need to rely on the muscle memory that I can build by playing a scale over and over again the same way. I do play slower passages with more freedom 'cause I use lots of different articulations.

[guitarteacher]

Position does refer to all six strings. One finger per fret. Think of it as a zone defense. Each finger covers its fret for all six strings. This reduces the fretboard to only four frets. Much easier around which to wrap your brain.

As to fretboard memorization, most classical guitarists know each note of the fretboard by rote and think of the actual pitch of the note they are playing and its theoretical context as opposed to relying on the pattern. That's not to say that patterns are not recognized - they are simply part of the backup information associated with each passage.

I can appreciate the context provided by systems such as CAGED. It's a good way to get all over the fretboard from the very beginning and eliminate fretboard intimidation. The more information, the better so far as I'm concerned.

GT

[JonR]

I'm with guitar teacher here.
I started learning guitar around 41 years ago (Kirkl, you got one on me!), and taught myself. I'd learned the notes on the neck before I ever encountered scale patterns. Now, I work from chord shapes - and of course I use scale patterns (inevitably), but tend not to think in them. I know the notes and their relationship to the chord/key.
(I play a little classical, btw, but mostly rock, jazz and blues.)
The CAGED system - along with scale patterns - was something I discovered and worked out for myself through experience. IOW, it was common sense in the end.
But I don't practice scale patterns (maybe I should... :o ). For soloing groundwork, I practice chord voicings, chord changing, etc, and adding chord extensions. And I practice melodic invention, phrasing etc, over that background.

I agree that basic positional play means one finger per fret. If I am working from one 6-string position, for those patterns that require an additional fret above or below, I might go out of position, or I might stretch either index back or pinky up - it depends on the situation and what I'm trying to play. But I very rarely use all 6 strings in one position - because I don't need 2 octaves at once very often - so I don't feel bound to positional patterns.

As a word of advice on improvisation generally (rather than technical stuff) - it all comes down to chord shapes. I learned this way by accident, but it turned out to work. I've never been confused about what scale to use when. I think in keys, chords and chord tones/extensions.

Don't get yourself too wedded to "modal" scale pattern names. The patterns are good, but the mode names are irrelevant in practice. (Eg, no need to choose a "mixolydian" pattern for a dom7 chord.)
Check out the mode stickies on the Theory board if this confuses you.

[kernix]

[QUOTE=Kirkl]

In terms of fretboard visualization, is there a widely accepted system for classical guitarists? (In terms of fretboard visualization, I found lots of references to the CAGED system that KERNIX mentioned, but not a really good site for the 3-note-per-string system and nothing yet for the Zone system.)

/QUOTE]

Kirk,

I'm not sure who coined the phrase, but I learned about it in a book called "Scales and Modes in the Beginning" by Ron Middlebrook - it's got a front cover a guy's arm on a guitar and the finger of God reaching to touch him - like the famous painting. Ih the 1st chapter it mentions those 3 as well as Segovian Fingerings. I'd recommend buying the book - lots of good stuff on scales and modes.

[Kirkl]

Wow. You guys are giving me a lot to digest. And making me understand how far the next step of my guitar journey really is.

Guitarteacher and Jon, I'm a long, long, long way from seeing every note on the fretboard without some visualization tool (at least not without time consuming thinking--no good for real-time improvisation). I can see how I might be there someday if I live long enough. For now I think that I'm going to have to rely on some sort of visualization system. My hope is that, over years, the system (or systems) will fade into the background and I will be left, like you guys, with just me and the fretboard.

Just for fun (if you guys aren't fed up with this yet), could you make your respective ways, Kernix, Jon and Guitarteacher, explicit for me in one particular case. (And this isn't an academic exercise, it's actually something that I'm figuring out right now in order to practise over a Dm7(b5) in a C minor jazzy blues progression.) Here's the case: how would each of you play a C Harmonic Minor scale starting in the third position on the low E string (G), all the way up to wherever you end up on the high E string. I'm asking about this one because I can figure out how to do the other scales I need in this position pretty easily using the advice that you've already given me (I can play over all the chords using only C Minor Blues, modes of Eb Major and C Harmonic Minor), but the gap between Ab and B in C Harmonic Minor makes it a bit tricky for me. It might be a good way to showcase the different approaches to fingering, if you guys are up for it. Who knows, maybe you'll all propose exactly the same fingering, even though you are coming at it from different perspectives.

I hope this is fun for you guys. It's certainly very educational for me and I want you all to know that I really appreciate it.

[kernix]

3rd position? Do you mean in the C position treating the E shape as 1st and the D shape as 2nd? That would be in the open position:

-1---3-4-
0-1---3-4-
0-1-------
0-1---3---
---2-3---
-1---3-4-

[Kirkl]

No Kernix. Sorry, I was referring to the other kind of position (it can be confusing can't it when there are multiple meanings/vocabularies for describing similar things).

Let's treat this as a little test for me... I think, using the CAGED vocubulary, it's where the "A shape" for the key of C falls: on the third fret. (But I'm not sure, since I don't know yet how the CAGED system is applied to a Harmonic Minor Scale. It would be the "A shape" for the C major scale.) ?!?

[Kirkl]

Actually, I think I just failed my first test. It really can't be the "A shape" of C major. That's pretty far from C harmonic minor. We'd have to pick something like the "C shape" of Eb, that falls on the third fret (3rd position in the other vocabulary) and modify it by changing all the Bb's to B's, or something?!?!?!???

[guitarteacher]

First off, I wouldn't begin in third position on the sixth string. I would begin in Second, if you want G to be the lowest available note or First if you need the F. Second Position is a better choice, imo because it allows the first finger to be a guide finger from B to C on the fifth string.

From there, 1, 3, 4 on the fifth string, 1, 3, 4 on the fourth, 2, 3 on the third (all in Third Position). Use 2 as a hidden guide finger to get to Sixth Position (a hidden guide finger is a finger which is left down [in this case 2] while another left hand finger plays [in this case 3])*.

Now, in Sixth Position, 2, 3 on the third string, 1, 3, 4 on the second, and 2, 3 on the first to complete the second octave.

* I am normally not a fan (at all) of leaving left hand fingers down when playing scales, but the creation of a guide finger is well worth the mental effort of remembering to purposefully break this rule, imo.

GT

[Kirkl]

Guitarteacher! Great! This little exercise really is going to show the different approaches!

Here's what I learnt from you... (And I did go right away and try it out on the guitar.)

1) I'm starting to get the idea of guide fingers. I will read up more on this and try things. I can't say that I use the technique properly yet.
2) Hidden guide fingers!
3) It's o.k. to move more than one position at a time! (Yesterday at this time I was locked into one position and was stretching my little finger to make it work. So I've come a long way thanks to you.)

I understand starting in 2nd position. (I had even considered it myself.) The move from 3rd position to 6th is pretty big. Does that happen a lot? I guess it must in scales where there are three semitone gaps.

Many thanks. Will practice.

[kernix]

Actually, I think I just failed my first test. It really can't be the "A shape" of C major. That's pretty far from C harmonic minor. We'd have to pick something like the "C shape" of Eb, that falls on the third fret (3rd position in the other vocabulary) and modify it by changing all the Bb's to B's, or something?!?!?!???

It's easiest thinking/seeing major chords in t he CAGED system - but minors work just as well - it depends where the roots fall. C harm minor at the 3rd fret in the A voicing:

---3-4-----
---3-4---6-
-----4-5---
---3---5-6-
-2-3---5-6-
---3-4-----


for the 4 note run on the A string I slide my index forward going down and slide it backward coming back up. That is the 5th mode of C harmonic minor and that mode is called the Phrygian Major or Dominant Phrygian mode - I think.

[Kirkl]

So Kernix, your fingering approach is similar to Guitarteacher's in that you move your index finger up for a position change on the fifth string. Where you differ is that from there on you stay at the same place on the fretboard while Guitarteacher moves to sixth position after the B and C on the third string.

Guitarteacher, I'm guessing here that you make the position change so that you'll finish on the tonic, C, on the first string. Is that right?

[guitarteacher]

That is correct. Force of habit to take it to the tonic, otherwise I would have fingered it the rest of the way in Third Position like Kernix.

GT

[kernix]

So Kernix, your fingering approach is similar to Guitarteacher's in that you move your index finger up for a position change on the fifth string. Where you differ is that from there on you stay at the same place on the fretboard while Guitarteacher moves to sixth position after the B and C on the third string.

Guitarteacher, I'm guessing here that you make the position change so that you'll finish on the tonic, C, on the first string. Is that right?


I don't go out of position more than I have to. For each position of the melodic minor, harmonic minor and the hals-step whole-step diminished scale, there is at least one string where you have the 4-note major 3rd run - but for the rest of the strings it'sa not that bad.

[kernix]

That is correct. Force of habit to take it to the tonic, otherwise I would have fingered it the rest of the way in Third Position like Kernix.

GT

YEah - I'll start on any note, but I always finish on the tonic