Derivative midi sample

[FINGERPICKINGOOD]

ok im trying to understand this whole usage of modes thang. In your derivative midi sample - am i correct in saying for each mode the key has changed? example -

the dorian part is in the key of D
Phrygian = E


And so on. So bacially in Derivative, the modes are actually played over the key that the mode represents and are rooted to said key - and not over the key of the original Ionian mode?

And Parrallel midi stays in the key of C the whole time - utilizing each pattern in the same position and always rooting to C.

Is this right? Ive been having problems with thinking (and trying) that the band can be in the key of C and i can root to B using the Locrian mode - thats what i thought was derivative - and it always sounded really bad to my ears. I was thinking maybe i just wasnt used to to but i cant seem to get used to it. Help me!!!! Whats the correct usage of modes. Ive read the lessons and still cant seem to get it!

[StoneDragon]

You've got the right idea.

For the Derivative MIDI, you can stay in C major through the whole thing, but the emphasis changes to D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian etc...

The parallel MIDI emphasizes C tonality throughout, but changes from C Ionian to C Dorian (Bb Major scale), C Phrygian (Ab Major scale), etc...


The problem you are having (from what you said) is that if the band is rooting to C, you need to play C something. B something won't work.

Derivative works like this:

C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian and B Locrian all use the same notes (C D E F G A B) and the same chords (C Dm Em F G Am Bdim). But that doesn't mean that you can use any old mode when you run into these chords. You have to pay attention to where the emphasis is.

If I take those chords and make it sound like C is the root, you need to play C Ionian over it. You can try playing one of the other modes, but it will just sound like C Ionian and you keep trying to stop on the wrong notes. Now, if I take those same chords and make it sound like Dm is the root, you need to play D Dorian over it.

That's what's happening in the Derivative MIDI. All the different changes that you hear in that MIDI use only the notes and chords of C major, but I shift the emphasis so that each note sounds like the root in turn.

The first part of the sequence uses the C G and F chords over a C bass note. This suggests C Ionian. The progression looks like this:

C G/C F/C F/C

The second part of the sequence still uses the F and G chords, but now I put them over a D minor bass line and a Dm chord being played by the piano. This suggests that you should play D Dorian:

F/D G/D G/D F/D


The third part of the sequence uses the F and G chords over an E Phrygian bass line, suggesting E Phrygian:

G/E F/E


The fourth part of the sequence uses the F and G chords over an F bass note, suggesting F Lydian:

F G/F


The fifth part of the sequence uses the F and G chords over a G Mixolydian bass line, suggesting G Myxolydian:

G F/G


The sixth part of the sequence uses the F and G chords over an A Aeolian bass line and an A pedal tone in the left hand on the piano, suggesting A Aeolian:

G/A F/A


The seventh part of the sequence uses the F and G chords over a B Locrian bass line and a Bmin7b5 chord being played by the piano, suggesting B Locrian:

G/B F/B


As you can probably see, this was an exercise to see if I could turn the IV and V chord of C Major into 7 different tonalities by changing the bass line underneath.


The Parallel MIDI uses the exact same chord progressions, but I transposed each of them to emphasize C.

The first part of the sequence is identical to that of the derivative MIDI, suggesting C ionian:

C G/C F/C F/C

The second part of the sequence uses Eb and F chords (IV and V of Bb) over a C minor bass line and a Cm chord played by the piano. This is in essence using the chords and notes of the key of Bb but making it sound like C is the root. Doing this suggests C Dorian:

Eb/C F/C F/C Eb/C

The third part of the sequence uses Db and Eb chords (IV and V of Ab) over a C Phrygian bass line, or using the notes and chords of the key of Ab but making it sound like C is the root. Doing this suggests C Phrygian:

Eb/C Db/C


The fourth part of the sequence uses C and D chords (IV and V of G) over a C bass note, or using the notes and chords of the key of G but making it sound like C is the root. Doing this suggests C Lydian:

C D/C


The fifth part of the sequence uses Bb and C chords (IV and V of F) over a C Mixolydian bass line, or using the notes and chords of F but making it sound like C is the root. Doing this suggests C Mixolydian:

C Bb/C


The sixth part of the sequence uses Ab and Bb chords (IV and V of Eb) over a C aeolian bass line and a C pedal played by the left hand on the piano, or using the notes and chords of Eb but making it sound like C is the root. doing this suggests C Aeolian:

Bb/C Ab/C


Finally, the seventh part of the sequence uses Gb and Ab chords (IV and V of Db) over a C Locrian bass line and a Cmin7b5 chord played by the piano, of using the notes and chords of the key of Db but making it sound like C is the root. Doing this suggests C Locrian:

Ab/C Gb/C

I would suggest that you listen to each file without trying to play over them. Listen for the changes in emphasis and how it effects the mood and feel of the piece. Understanding the mood and feel is a big part of learning to use modes correctly.

[FINGERPICKINGOOD]

Ok - ive got derivative, but now im having trouble with parallel. You said

For the dorian you said that it used the notes of the key of Bb but making it sound like C is the root. That confuses me. Why? How? The dorian mode of C major is rooted to D. But of course your using the parallel method so you are using the dorian form in the C position. There for rooting to C. Where did you get Bb from? Im at work so i obviously dont have a guitar to look at to try and figure this out, but usually my head can do it. I cant figure it out. I looked at all the modes used in the parallel example and what keys where being used but i still cannot grasp where they are coming from.

Also - Does this mean if the band is jamming in the kay of Bb (major im guessing) and rooting to Bb, can i use the C dorian scale?

Wait a second! C dorian is the second mode of the Bb ionian scale. Hmmmmmmm. Ab ionian would then call for C phrygian. I think its coming to me. Please take the time to explain if you can.

Now that I just had a revalation and i think im getting it, what i dont understand is how do you use the key of Bb (major or minor, dont know which) and make it sound like C dorian. Or how do you use the key of Ab (major or minor, still dont know which- how could i find out?) and make it sound like C phrygian? Just take the Bb (major or minor, im thinking its all based off of major) and use that scale but root to the C? Am i making any sense? If not lemme know what doesnt make sense and ill reword it for ya. Thanks again for your help stone.

[StoneDragon]

Wait a second! C dorian is the second mode of the Bb ionian scale. Hmmmmmmm. Ab ionian would then call for C phrygian. I think its coming to me. Please take the time to explain if you can.

That's it!


Also - Does this mean if the band is jamming in the kay of Bb (major im guessing) and rooting to Bb, can i use the C dorian scale?

Yes and no.


First of all lets establish that there is a difference between using the notes associated with the key of Bb and rooting to Bb

If the band is using the notes of the key of Bb and rooting to Bb, the only logical choice is to play Bb Ionian. If you try to play C Dorian, it's just going to sound like Bb Ionian. What the band is playing will dictate the scale. If they keep emphasizing Bb as "home base", you will need to do the same with your lead.


If you're thinking C dorian, chances are that you will be trying to land on the C note with your licks and phrases. This will make you sound like you don't know how to find the root note (which the band dictates as Bb).


Now, if the band is using the notes of the key of Bb, but they are emphasizing C as "home base", it's going to sound like C Dorian. Therefore, you will need to think (and play) C Dorian.

It's all about where the emphasis is.


Now, there are situations where doing what I just told you not to do is actually a good idea. For example, a song might call for C Dorian but I'll play as if I'm using D Phrygian (same notes as C Dorian). It's still going to sound like C Dorian, but by thinking D Phrygian, I'll have a tendency to hang out on the D note. This sound really jazzy if you do it right. The difference is that I know I'm playing in C Dorian and intentionally hanging out on the second (or 9 in chord terms) note of the scale.


what i dont understand is how do you use the key of Bb (major or minor, dont know which) and make it sound like C dorian. Or how do you use the key of Ab (major or minor, still dont know which- how could i find out?) and make it sound like C phrygian?

You sound like you've got the right idea here. Modes are based off of the major scale. So if you wanted to play, for example, G Phrygian, you would need to ask yourself which mode is phrygian. Phrygian is the 3rd mode (of the major scale). So G would be the third note of which major scale? G is the third note of Eb major. So G Phrygian is using the notes of Eb but making it sond like the 3rd note of the scale (G) is "home base".

Again, it's all about emphasis.


Let's look at the chords available in the key of C:

C Dmin Emin F G Amin Bdim


If you take these chords (you don't have to use all of them) and make it sound like C is "home base", you'll have a progression that calls for C ionian:

C Dmin Emin Dmin G C


If, instead, you make it sound like Dmin is "home base", you'll have a progression that calls for D Dorian:

Dmin Emin F Emin Dmin

The trick is coming up with a progression that makes D sound like "home base".

[FINGERPICKINGOOD]

Cool man. Thank you so much. Things are begining to make sense now. You did a good job of explaining it. I was wondering why my D dorian sounded like crap over a rooted C progression! Thanks again.