An idea....

[Lazy Bee]

I've been actively pursuing a writing deal here in Nashville for a little over three years. So have hundreds if not thousands of others. Many have gone home, some have been signed. Some, like myself are still swinging.

I've learned a lot about the craft of "commercial" song writing. And what publishers look for in a writer and what record companies, producers, and artists look for in a song.

I thought I might share some of that if anyone is interested. I could be at this computer typing for a week and not cover it all though. So rather than waste time and put a lot of info out there that no one cares about. I thought I'd see if there's any interest in such a discussion.

Keep in mind Nashville is not just a country music town. The same rules for song craft apply to all genres (generally speaking). lol A lot of rock and alternative acts co-write and shop for songs here. Eric Clapton got "If I Could Change The World Here" here....as well as other songs. A friend of mine from Kansas had a smash with the Dixie Chicks (their first #1) while at the same time set radio records with a song he wrote with Kenny Wayne Shepherd.... "Blue on Black" My bar guitar buddy from Kansas is now a multi millionaire. One of the finest traditional country writers I've met co- wrote Bonnie Raitts smash "I Cant Make You Love Me". I went to a 2 hour workshop last night where the author of Tim McGraws #1 "Watch The Wind Blow By" spoke and was open to questions. He is a Berkley graduate and listed Eddie Van Halen as a major musical influence....right behind his love for deep jazz. Point is Nashville is her people and her people are much much more than country music.

Anyway....if I can assist anyone with a particular question about songwriting and or the biz of song writing....I'd be glad to. Just thought I'd throw it out there.

[Mr. Boston]

I've been actively pursuing a writing deal here in Nashville for a little over three years. So have hundreds if not thousands of others. Many have gone home, some have been signed. Some, like myself are still swinging.

I've learned a lot about the craft of "commercial" song writing. And what publishers look for in a writer and what record companies, producers, and artists look for in a song.

I thought I might share some of that if anyone is interested. I could be at this computer typing for a week and not cover it all though. So rather than waste time and put a lot of info out there that no one cares about. I thought I'd see if there's any interest in such a discussion.

Keep in mind Nashville is not just a country music town. The same rules for song craft apply to all genres (generally speaking). lol A lot of rock and alternative acts co-write and shop for songs here. Eric Clapton got "If I Could Change The World Here" here....as well as other songs. A friend of mine from Kansas had a smash with the Dixie Chicks (their first #1) while at the same time set radio records with a song he wrote with Kenny Wayne Shepherd.... "Blue on Black" My bar guitar buddy from Kansas is now a multi millionaire. One of the finest traditional country writers I've met co- wrote Bonnie Raitts smash "I Cant Make You Love Me". I went to a 2 hour workshop last night where the author of Tim McGraws #1 "Watch The Wind Blow By" spoke and was open to questions. He is a Berkley graduate and listed Eddie Van Halen as a major musical influence....right behind his love for deep jazz. Point is Nashville is her people and her people are much much more than country music.

Anyway....if I can assist anyone with a particular question about songwriting and or the biz of song writing....I'd be glad to. Just thought I'd throw it out there.

Lazy you don't have to explain the rich bounty of Nashville's musical culture, and the width and breadth of it. It's a cultural national treasure in my book, some magic in the air there on par with New Orleans where that goes.

But yes I for one would be MORE than happy to hear of the wisdom you've gleaned writing songs in the country's musical heartland.

[JimiHaynes]

Best thread evah!

Questions? Awww, man. Get comfortable 'cause I'm gonna start slinging 'em at cha'.

Obviously hook is important. What would you say from your experience is the most important thing when pitching a song? One of the things I've heard is you want to be at the chorus around the 1 minute mark. Any truth? If so, how do you keep 'em interested to that point?

Also, how do you even go about getting somebody to listen one of your songs?

[genereaux]

I'd LOVE to watch/partake in such a dialogue. Though I'll telll you, I am STAUNCHLY ensconced in the 'Write your OWN song' camp. While I'm fine with(and even grateful for) the fact that there IS a song shopping market, and don't mean understate the talent of those writers- My personal perception of it strikes me as artistically 'cheating'.
That is merely my take on it, and I will further qualify that by saying that I am not a real fan of todays country, or American Idol, or similar genres that deal in the separate writer/performer creative process.

Also, I hold concerns that this method (largely the business side) perhaps holds sway over turning the art of songwriting into a vapid, formulaic, almost 'sterile' experience, which I find to be the antithesis of 'creating'.
HOWEVER, (before someone hires the gunrack brigade to come find me) I have HUGE respect, and genuinely enjoy Lucinda Williams. But moreso when she plays her work herself.

Having said all that, I WOULD enjoy hearing about the process,trials and tribs and such about life in the 21st century Tin Pan Alley.


sean

[JimiHaynes]

I'd LOVE to watch/partake in such a dialogue. Though I'll telll you, I am STAUNCHLY ensconced in the 'Write your OWN song' camp. While I'm fine with(and even grateful for) the fact that there IS a song shopping market, and don't mean understate the talent of those writers- My personal perception of it strikes me as artistically 'cheating'.
That is merely my take on it, and I will further qualify that by saying that I am not a real fan of todays country, or American Idol, or similar genres that deal in the separate writer/performer creative process.

Also, I hold concerns that this method (largely the business side) perhaps holds sway over turning the art of songwriting into a vapid, formulaic, almost 'sterile' experience, which I find to be the antithesis of 'creating'.
HOWEVER, (before someone hires the gunrack brigade to come find me) I have HUGE respect, and genuinely enjoy Lucinda Williams. But moreso when she plays her work herself.

Having said all that, I WOULD enjoy hearing about the process,trials and tribs and such about life in the 21st century Tin Pan Alley.


sean

Ya know, I hear what you're saying, I really do. I felt that way for years, but I believe it's still artistic, even if you're following a formula. You're gonna follow a formula no matter what. There's still a verse, there's still a chorus, still a bridge. Listen to every style of music. It follows a formula. Maybe you play music for a living. I don't. If I could tap into this formula, and do what I love for living, and make people sing along to my song, I'm all for it. It's still art. Art requires a canvas, no? The way I look at it is the formula is the canvas.

[freetime]

There's a formula for writing lyrics?

[genereaux]

Art requires a canvas, no? The way I look at it is the formula is the canvas.
I think that's a pretty good metaphor. Good enough for me to use it to explain why I bristle at a 'formulaic' cookie cutter approach to 'creating'

ME; hey, I think I'm gonna paint another painting
Oppresive Art Critic Nazi; Good, it's about time. Let's get some canvas
Me; mmm, I'm not gonna do canvas, I was thinking 'mural'
OACN; No. Absoulutely not. Has to be canvas. No one looks at murals anymore.
Me; What?, No, that's BS, murals are cool....
OACN; murals are SO 1978, it HAS to be canvas!
Me; I dunno, I think the painting is too big for canvas....
OACN; Big is GOOD. I LOVE big. Let's do it on canvas.
Me; mmm, well... I could START on canvas, I suppose. Then maybe scale it up later as a mural....
OACN; Yes, scale it up later. That's great. Let's go get some canvas.
Me; Well, I have canvas here. I'll just get it set up.....
OACN; (looking at canvas)No. Can't use THAT. We have to go get some.
Me; What! Why? What's wrong with it?
OACN; It's too rough!
Me; WHAT? I LIKE this canvas. I like that it's 'rough'. It's visceral.
OACN; Visceral is OUT. 1200 is in.
Me;1200?
OACN; THREAD COUNT. 1200 Thread count. C'mon, I know a guy who'll give us a deal....
Me; 1200 thread count CANVAS?! No, screw this. That's stupid. I'm NOT using 1200 thread count....
OACN; If you use 1200, we can get it hung in ALL of the galleries. 1200 SELLS!
at this point, I snap, and attempt to bludgeon him with a collectable Beanie Baby Andy Warhol effigy. Which is pointless, because it's BEANIE, so I attempt to fling a can of Campbells Tomato soup at him, but misses and since it has the convenient 'pull-top' lid, bursts open and spill on the floor where I proceed to slip in it and fall, breaking my wrist on some art deco molding (I had it coming) and now I can't paint for three months.


That's where I'M coming from anyway......


There's a formula for writing lyrics?
Well, yes. Sorta. Try going to an ASCAP songwriter convention, you'll get bombarded with 'em.

Actually, I refer to a formula for songwriting in general (not JUST lyrics), involving things like "verse, chorus, verse, chorus bridge..." and "chorus at the 1 minute" and syllable counts and such.
All of which are nice ideas and/or tools, and have value in most circumstances. But, when corporatized, they are evolved into a rigid, etched in stone set of 'commandments' which must now never be strayed from. Not that's the ENTIRETY of the music biz, or even Nashville, but it's there and, unfortunately, makes enough money for some people that it just keeps on happening. Despite the fact that it typically produces forgetable gems like 'Bye, Bye, Bye' and other such musical equivalents to 'Dogs Playing Poker'



sean

[Lazy Bee]

Lazy you don't have to explain the rich bounty of Nashville's musical culture, and the width and breadth of it.

To you perhaps. I feel fairly certain there's a kid somewhere learning to play and write who may read a few of those observations and appreciate it. Maybe he'll be a little surprised. Maybe even be inspired. For that matter there's probably a lot of people out there on the www who would have never imagined a jazz or blues virtuoso writing country hits with equal passion and authority.

When I arrived in Nashville I was, and continue to be, astonished by the depth of talent and influences around here. Especially in the song writing circles.

You've made it a matter of record...Mr B gets it. ;)

[Lazy Bee]

Questions? Awww, man. Get comfortable 'cause I'm gonna start slinging 'em at cha'.

What would you say from your experience is the most important thing when pitching a song?

I was counting on you bro! :) Great questions...oh man what I have gotten myself into? lol


Let's start with the pitch.

Most important thing when pitching a song? I'd say the single most important thing is to know as much about the person you're pitching to as you possibly can. In my case we're talking publishers and that can be very difficult. Every publisher is a little different. More often than not you're learning about that individual as he's listening and commenting. That is if you're fortunate enough meet with someone who opens up. Some don't. I've walked away from several workshops, seminars, and pitches wishing I had played a different song. Not neccassarily because I thought another song was better, but by the end of the night I had gotten a feel for the person. You just have to file it away and hope to see them again.

Here's a few quotes from different publishers and the responses I had rolling around my head at the time...

"I'm not a big fan of poetry in country music"... Dangit, I should have brought a Bubba song. Bubba helps me when I'm stuck in a song or I'm getting to frilly or clever. I think to myself...what would Bubba say in this situation?

"I dont need another ballad"...Crap, I brought a ballad!

"I've been listening to The Jets all day"...Cool he likes rock. Shoulda brought One Good Man of Fire In My Veins.

"Good song, it lacks that one special poetry moment though"...Crap, I brought a Bubba song!

"My #1 request from labels and producers is for great upbeat chick (female artist) songs"... Great, now I have to learn to think like a CHICK! note to self..."Write 50 chick songs as soon as possible"

Or the most recent one that really stung. I played "Signs of Life" for a major major publisher. A very well respected tunesmith. The kind of guy that can call anybody and get an appointment. I played the original version Jimi. I think you know it. He listened to the whole song (very rare)...he looked over at me and said...
"Great songwriting!! This song is perfect, dont change anything (very very rare comment) You remind me of an old friend mine. I told him 20 years ago he had to decide wether he was going to write great song or commercial songs. In this town...I couldn't get arrested with this song" ....I cant write better than this.....I'm screwed!


I joke around a little here but I think you can see my point. I envy the guys who report to the same publisher every day because they know what he wants. They establish a working relationship.

Here's a couple safe rules when pitching to publishers though. Every single time they listen , they're looking for a hit. They want to tell you yes as much or more than you want them to. Are they always right about a song? Of course not. But always take them a commercial song. Take a hit. They're not looking to hang your song on the wall as art. They're looking to hang gold records on the wall for a living. If your best, most honest assessment is that you haven't yet written a hit, play them the best song you have that demonstrates you know the craft of writing.. Publishers may not say it a lot but many are always looking for writers too. You dont know it until they invite you in or back for a meeting. They may not even know it until they hear you. So always pitch songs that are written to the absolute best of your abilities and ones that adhere to commercial parameters. If you're looking for a job, they need to know that you get it.

There's a few thoughts on the subject. lol

to be cont.......

[Lazy Bee]

I'd LOVE to watch/partake in such a dialogue. Though I'll telll you, I am STAUNCHLY ensconced in the 'Write your OWN song' camp.


sean

Cool, but let's not have to move this to Mosh pit. ;) I'm not out to change anyones staunch positions. lol I'm not going to defend the machine or curse it. I'll be happy to tell you how it looks though. I'm just trying to share a little insight.

Remember, I said commercial writing. Every commercial writer I know has an amazing collection of "art" songs as they are referred to. Sometimes the two converge. Often they dont.

Hundreds and hundreds of writers a year come here not to learn but determined to turn it all around, shake things up. A couple guys here and there over the last 50 years have done that. When you really examine writers/artists like Hank Williams, Willie Nelson, and Kris Kristopherson you find that they changed the direction but honed the craft even tighter. For the most part the only thing that gets turned around are the cars taking folks back home. Big fish in small ponds. Nothing wrong with that though! :)

[genereaux]

Cool, but let's not have to move this to Mosh pit. ;)

Oh, it won't. I apologise if that read with more bad attitude then it was written with. Staunch doesn't HAVE to mean 'militant'.
I expect your thread to prove at least interesting, if not outright enlighting (a the 'pitch' post has already proven), regardless of whether it inspires me to attempt commercial writing.

The reality is, most of my frustration (and likely most others that share a similar attitude) with your aspect of the 'machine' is merely bleed-over from the "evil record company" tactics that spawned the 'corporate music' stereotype. If that makes any sense.....

I don't mean to categorically demonize the song for hire aspect of music. I'm fairly certain I couldn't cut as a commercial guy, so maybe it's subconcious resentment. I'll work on it......:o


In the meantime, as a gesture of good faith, I'd be happy to offer you listens to my songs, wherein you can play the role of producer and inviscerate them. Just let get a couple more posted, but I would appreciate some experienced feedback..........


sean

[Lazy Bee]

What would you say from your experience is the most important thing when pitching a song?

A little more on this....:) We touched a little on the publisher.

The artist.....the chances of getting a song to a major recording artist is slim to none. It happens, but it's extremely rare unless you happen to be friends. If you have a track record of writing smash hits and now have your own publishing company you have a pretty good chance. lol The other possibility is a little luck. While Garth Brooks was still in the development stage of his recording career he found "The Dance" at a writers night at the Bluebird Cafe. He was just hanging out and heard it performed by the writer. The rest is history. You can never underestimate the importance of performing live in this town. You never know who's out there.

Considering the long odds against getting a song directly to the artist or his producer, it's still worth thinking about what an artist wants when you write and put songs forward. A publisher prepares for pitches to recording artists very carefully. So should you.

Know as much about the artist as you can. This is a difficult area for some one on the outside....like me. Publishers get hot sheets weekly or bi weekly. The hot sheet reads something like this....

"Faith Hill recording this week....stills looking for hits and needs up tempo songs. Ballads have been selected." So the publisher has a meeting with his writers and announces what's up. They go to work. Only a fool would turn in a ballad at the end of the day if he's working on that project. Only a bigger fool would show up to pitch the ballad. I say that because there may be 50 publishers show up with 100 songs. The producer was kind enough to put the word out as to what he's looking for and you were rude enough to show up and waste his time playing something else. You cant be stubborn about it. It's buisness. Exception....something magic happens. Two writers failed to come up with an up tempo song but wrote an absolutely amazing ballad. A song so great the publisher is moved to ask permission to pitch it. Sometimes songs get bumped and replaced when something amazing flys in off the radar. But it has to be an unbelievable song. A publisher may not get the hot sheets after a while if he has a reputation of wasting time showing up with opposite of what has been requested. The same way a writer may get fired eventually if he continues to fail to write what is requested. The same way a writer may never get a gig if he's stubborn about serving up what works in the market. That's not to say all artistic freedom is stifled. It is strongly encouraged. But that's a whole other conversation. lol

Here's a great example of smart writing and knowing, at least thinking, about what an artist may want to sing about. Jon Rich wrote Mississippi Girl with Faith in mind. She's from Mississippi...."smart".... It charted very well and made him a cool million or so. ;) Made an equal amount for the publisher too.

As hard as it is to know what an artist wants or personal things about him and what risks he's willing to take. There are some general guidelines that are helpful. Artist want songs they can represent. Songs that they can sing in front of 20 thousand people and feel good about. Songs they can put themselves into and the fans can follow them there. Very few are willing to role play. The exceptions are firmly established artists. Tim McGraw may take a chance whereas a brand new guy eager to get established is less likely to come out and sing about being a drunk or a loser or try to talk about what it's like to be dying or old or gay (not that there's anything wrong with that), or how he keeps losing at love, or how disfunctional his family is. The list of negative topics go on and on. All artists however are looking for up lifting songs that swing and party and speak of human triumph. You can talk about adversity, but in the end the story teller (the artist) better be doing all right. Artists dont want to sing songs that put them in a bad light. While that may seem like a no brainer you'd be amazed at some of stuff people pitch that that just dwell on and on about heart ache. Or subjects that require the artist to become a character they dont want to put themselves in. I've done it myself. It's foolish. The average commercial recording artist has no interest in being an actor. That's for movie stars.


Pitching to artists? Be smart, don't play a dog song if they want cat songs. George Jones might want a story song that is conversational about alcohol recovery. Jason Aldean would probably prefer a song about burning up the night with all his rowdy friends....or that special girl he just met.

gotta run...to be continued

[Lazy Bee]

Oh, it won't. I apologise if that read with more bad attitude then it was written with. Staunch doesn't HAVE to mean 'militant'.
I expect your thread to prove at least interesting, if not outright enlighting (a the 'pitch' post has already proven), regardless of whether it inspires me to attempt commercial writing.

The reality is, most of my frustration (and likely most others that share a similar attitude) with your aspect of the 'machine' is merely bleed-over from the "evil record company" tactics that spawned the 'corporate music' stereotype. If that makes any sense.....

I don't mean to categorically demonize the song for hire aspect of music.


I'd be happy to offer you listens to my songs, wherein you can play the role of producer and inviscerate them. Just let get a couple more posted, but I would appreciate some experienced feedback..........


sean

Great post bro. That's kinda where I thought you were coming from. Thanks for confirming it. :) I'd looooove to hear some of your songs.

[genereaux]

Great post bro. That's kinda where I thought you were coming from. Thanks for confirming it. :) I'd looooove to hear some of your songs.
NP. Again, apologies for the initial poor wording

Though the O count you used in "love" hints toward sarcasm, I hope to record some of tonights rehearsal, so ideally I may post a couple more songs tomorrow night-ish.
I'll keep you posted.



So the publisher has a meeting with his writers and announces what's up. They go to work.

So, do publishers hold a stable of writers? (like, say, a tv series has a team of staff writers)
And, would a label/producer hire A publisher (or even a couple) to facilitate an upcoming albumn, or is the Hot Sheet just 'shotgunned' to a list of 'prefered vendor' type publishers?



sean

[Lazy Bee]

Though the O count you used in "love" hints toward sarcasm,






sean

No sarcasm at all Sean. I mean that sincerely!! You're obviously passionate about song writing. And the invitation to critique from a Nashville point of view really peaks my interest.

Gotta get to work now, I'll definitely respond to your other questions later.

[Lazy Bee]

So, do publishers hold a stable of writers? (like, say, a tv series has a team of staff writers)

sean

Yes publishers hire writers. The "stable" is considered their staff. Contracted is a better way to put it. There is a base salary, that is negotiated, which is considered a draw. As a draw, it is considered a debt to the publisher and is repaid when and if a writer generates income. Right now the going rate is 25 to 30 grand a year. Three years is normal. A common agreement is a 50/50 split on any money generated by the writer plus paying backing the draw...

However there are all kind of deals. From single song contracts to simple demo deals. I have a single song contract right now with Warner Chappel. Basically it is an agreement that they have the exclusive rights on one song of mine they like. But they don't feel good enough about me to sign me/start paying me a salary. lol If they get the song cut and released as a single an extended staff writer contract might follow.

That's how a lot of writers get deals these days. It used to be if you showed promise and seemed like you had "it" and they liked you...you could get a development deal. The three years allows time for you to develop and time for their investment to pay off. Illegal downloading has lowered the amount of venture capitol publishers and labels are willing to risk. So less and less development deals are out there. It still happens, but not as frequent as it used to. Publishers that used to carry 20 to 30 writers now may carry 5 or 6. I heard Sony used to carry 200 writers, they're down to around 50. Times are tough. You wanna a commercial deal? It's easiest if you bring something to the table to start with.

The demo deal...the most stripped down deal I'm aware of. A publisher sees something in you and has agreed to let you turn in songs on a regular basis. That alone is huge!! They'll let you write with their staff and attend meetings but they wont pay you a salary. If you write something they want to get behind they will finance the demo and pitch it. Demos run between $600 to $1200 a song. It's a very clear deal. A version of the modern day development deal I guess. Wish I had one. :rolleye:

A little about the money...say you write a #1 song which is worth about a million dollars in the country radio market. Over the life of the song it could go far beyond that. Greatest hits packages.....or maybe it continues to play on the radio for life as a "classic", the money never stops in that case. But as a new release....the time it takes to go #1 and then down off the charts is worth a million dollars. You split it 50/50 with the publisher and you have to pay back your years draw.

By now you may be see the publisher as another brick in the evil empire that has no risk, reaps all the benefits, and only cares about money. It may appear that way but the fact is even as careful as he was in selecting the writers he contracted.... some will never generate a dime. It happens. When his contract expires he will probably not get a new deal. He does not have to pay back the draw though. Only when he makes money does he have to pay it back. That's the risk a publisher takes. Imagine yourself as a publisher contracted to pay 90 grand per writer for three years and some or none of them produce. Heads roll!! Maybe yours. It's an extremely high risk venture.

Yet it's extremely lucrative when one of your writers turns in several hits a year. "Several" is rare, but it happens. Hits aren't the only thing generating money. One cut on a gold record is worth around 50 grand. Split that and pay your draw and the publisher comes close to breaking even. But as hard as it is for a publisher to get a "hit" on a record.... getting a cut can be even more competitive. And remember, records aren't selling well these days. So the real money is in radio and tv airplay. Guess what you hear there.... hit songs!

The other half of your question is great! The producers role and how they operate is really cool. I will get back to it sean.

Another cool topic is publisher themselves. Their backgrounds and experiences are usually pretty unique stories.

[John Burr]

This is the best thread on any site anywhere Bro! Thanks for doing this man, i will be watching it as it unfolds. I am really kind of interested in how you are making a living while working at getting your break too. I am sort of interested in where you are playing and how important it is to getting your stuff heard. Nashville is such a cool place I am really enjoying learning more about the actual business that goes on there...

BSR

[millrat]

I agree with JB, this is very interesting, and well appreciated. At one time I wanted to move to Nashville and pitch some of my songs. I never really wanted to be a performer, just a writer. That was in the late 80's early 90's.
I still love to write. Is it possible to mail demos? If so, what would be the best place to mail them, the publishing companies, or the record label, or even to the artist? I'll have to share some of my songs here in the near future.

[Lazy Bee]

There's a formula for writing lyrics?


Formula is not the term I prefer to use in regard to lyrics. I like to think of them as more of a craft. There are song formulas/structures you can use to craft your lyrics within. Obviously they're connected, but lyrics represent a unique glimpse of our imagination and the ability to express it. Of course music does that also but we're talking lyrics right now. I haven't found a formula to take me there yet. lol

As writing lyrics is an art form anything qualifies I suppose. If they speak to you or have pleased you in some way they have merit to say the least. Lyrics that ignite the imagination and stir emotions within the masses usually requires a skill set. It may come natural to some. Others. like myself, have to work at it.

There's a great analogy Ralph Murphey uses that I like to embellish on. They say the oldest profession is....well you know. Consider this.... Three cavemen went on a hunting trip. Igor, Zog, and Bilg. Only Zog and Igor return. That night with the tribe crowded around the evening fire. Igor announces Bilg was attacked and killed. The tribe gasps.."What happened" Igor says... "He died"...A moment of silence descends on the tribe as they stare into the fire. Zog finally breaks the silence with..."We were bedding down on Blue Ridge. Our fire was almost out. Not so much as a breeze in the air. The night was so quiet I could hear my heart beat...I was admiring the way the moon was casting light on the shadows that had fallen on the leaves. I was wishing I had a wife. Bilg was already asleep snoring...you know how he is. Out of no where a lion appeared in the heart of our camp. I'll never forget the sound of his pads stomping up dust as he positioned himself to strike. I jumped to the river below. Igor climbed into the rocks. The lion must have had Bilg by the throat because I never heard a sound beyond my own breathing. In the morning, all we found was Bilgs blood drying in the sun"

Zog has just guaranteed himself a front row seat at the fire for many days to come. Maybe even some of the chiefs bread. Good thing too because winter is coming on. Who knows though? Maybe there was a young cave maiden waiting in the shadows who knew how to persuade Zog to let her accompany him at the fire for a night or two. Maybe the worlds oldest profession is a tie.

We all have stories to tell, emotions to express. Learning to do it well with lyrics is a craft. The reason some writers make a living at it (besides the tons of hard work they put in, the heart break of trying over and over, and finally a little luck) is that they do it in such a way that appeals to a lot of people and becomes popular. Popular = commercial = $$$ Of course some will hate it for that reason, but man what a great problem to have!!

[Lazy Bee]

Obviously hook is important. One of the things I've heard is you want to be at the chorus around the 1 minute mark. Any truth? If so, how do you keep 'em interested to that point?

Also, how do you even go about getting somebody to listen one of your songs?


I really look forward to getting into these Jimi, The first question gets to the heart of song craft.

The second one will be a fun discussion too. It's a fun experience. That is if you like like your nads smashed.

Just wanted to let you know I hadn't forgotten.

[Lazy Bee]

This is the best thread on any site anywhere Bro! Thanks for doing this man, i will be watching it as it unfolds. I am really kind of interested in how you are making a living while working at getting your break too. I am sort of interested in where you are playing and how important it is to getting your stuff heard. Nashville is such a cool place I am really enjoying learning more about the actual business that goes on there...

BSR

Thanks John, I was hoping there would be some interest. I'll get back to you for sure.

I agree with JB, this is very interesting, and well appreciated. At one time I wanted to move to Nashville and pitch some of my songs. I never really wanted to be a performer, just a writer. That was in the late 80's early 90's.
I still love to write. Is it possible to mail demos? If so, what would be the best place to mail them, the publishing companies, or the record label, or even to the artist? I'll have to share some of my songs here in the near future.

Thanks millrat. I really appreciate it. I'll defintely get back to you on your questions. It may be late tomorrow or the following day. I'll look forward to checking out your work as well.

[JimiHaynes]

I really look forward to getting into these Jimi, The first question gets to the heart of song craft.

The second one will be a fun discussion too. It's a fun experience. That is if you like like your nads smashed.

Just wanted to let you know I hadn't forgotten.

I appreciate you taking the time to lay this all out. Not many people in my experience are willing to do what you're doing, so it's GREATLY appreciated. Lots of great info so far.

[Lazy Bee]

Obviously hook is important. One of the things I've heard is you want to be at the chorus around the 1 minute mark. Any truth? If so, how do you keep 'em interested to that point?

You kinda have two questions in regard to hook and chorus. Hook is king for sure. If you asked a room full of publishers and producers where they like to see the hook I think they'd agree within one minute. However, if your chorus starts at 1 minute and your hook is at the end of the chorus....say around a minute and a half...you may be off the mark.

My Ascap rep recently encouraged me to put the hook deeper into the song. Radio has decided to play songs longer this year. His theory is that burn out for the listener will be delayed if the hook is delayed. He has the pulse of a lot of industry types so I went to work. I wrote three songs with the hook at the end of 1st chorus. He liked em all...structurally speaking. He spanked them in other ways. When I pitched them to publishers...they all said the hook was late. lol On one pitch a guy said waaaay to late. It was at a minute thirty seconds.

Consider this though. Lee Ann Womack had BMI song of the year a while back with "I Hope You Dance". A huge smash song. It sent a lot of pretty good songs back down the charts from #2 while it stayed #1.

The hook first appears at one minute twenty two seconds! And....there's no chorus until the end of the second verse! When it does appear, the lyrics are slightly veiled in harmony (back in the mix) while she sings the hook (repeatedly) over the top of them. I heard that song several times before I knew what the lyrics were in the chorus.

A minute twenty two seconds.....confused yet? lol I am. But not really, it's just a brilliantly written song. It happens. :) Two great song crafters stepped out there. Everything about the song worked so well it just couldn't be denied. Even though it seemed to defy commonly held views about smart form. I guess the lesson is never elevate location of the hook above how you get there or how it sounds. I didn't catch the lyrics of the chorus right away but I'll never in my life forget the hook melody and how she sang it. When I did hear the chorus lyrics it was like having my mind blown by the song all over again. Like it was designed to do that. Sick!

Before anyone brands this renegade master piece a blow to the evil empire remember, they brought it to you. They love to see it happen too.

In regard to the second part of your question....how to keep them interested while you get to the hook...this song is a perfect example of a few things. It's conversational, "I to you", (always nice for pulling people in) :) it's expresses the highest regard and deepest sentiments for another person. (who wouldn't want to hear all these things said to them.) It all just leads you along with awesome imagery to boot. It's a great song, check it out.

I Hope You Dance...written by Tia Sillars and Mark D Sanders

I hope you never lose your sense of wonder
You get your fill to eat but always keep that hunger
May you never take one single breath for granted
God forbid love ever leave you empty handed
I hope you still feel small when you stand by the ocean
Whenever one door closes, I hope one more opens
Promise me you'll give faith a fighting chance
And when you get the choice to sit it out or dance

I hope you dance
I hope you dance

I hope you never fear those mountains in the distance
Never settle for the path of least resistance
Living might mean taking chances but they're worth taking
Lovin' might be a mistake but it's worth making
Don't let some hell bent heart leave you bitter
When you come close to selling out reconsider
Give the heavens above more than just a passing glance
And when you get the choice to sit it out or dance

I hope you dance
(Time is a real and constant motion always)
I hope you dance
(Rolling us along)
I hope you dance
(Tell me who wants to look back on their youth and wonder)
I hope you dance
)Where those years have gone)

I hope you still feel small when you stand by the ocean
Whenever one door closes, I hope one more opens
Promise me you'll give faith a fighting chance
And when you get the choice to sit it out or dance


I hope you dance
I hope you dance
(Time is a real and constant motion always)
I hope you dance
(Rolling us along)
I hope you dance
(Tell me who wants to look back on their youth and wonder)
I hope you dance
(Where those years have gone)

(Tell me who)
I hope you dance
(Wants to look back on their youth and wonder)
(Where those years have gone)

When I think about it, all this song says is "I love you. I want you to experience life humbly, faithfully, fearlessly, completely.... I wish you the best" These writers found a way to say it over and over without repeating them selves. I guess they did throw in a few clues how to do it. ;)

Tia Sillers and Mark D Sanders are welcome at any fire in town that's for sure.

[Scorpaeon]

Great thread LB! Fascinating stuff, I'm realy enjoying reading your posts.

I have no allusion of becoming a great song writer but I greatly appreciate the chance to soak in some of your knowledge and insight. Thanks brother.

[crank]

Lazy Bee, Good luck in Nashburg. I used to hang out there a lot a long time ago. I saw and heard a lot of great music there in clubs all over town.

Here's an incidental hook story I read recently. This involves the song "Cult of Personality" by the band Living Color. It seems the opening guitar hook originally didn't appear until after the first chorus. When they recorded it the producer insisted it be moved up to the very head of the tune. Would it have been a hit otherwise? Who knows?

[Lazy Bee]

Great thread LB! Fascinating stuff, I'm realy enjoying reading your posts.

I have no allusion of becoming a great song writer but I greatly appreciate the chance to soak in some of your knowledge and insight. Thanks brother.

Glad you like it Scorp. Perhaps, unfortunately, I "do" have illusions. :) I asked my doctor if I was bi-polar and he said no you're a song writer.

Lazy Bee, Good luck in Nashburg. I used to hang out there a lot a long time ago. I saw and heard a lot of great music there in clubs all over town.

Here's an incidental hook story I read recently. This involves the song "Cult of Personality" by the band Living Color. It seems the opening guitar hook originally didn't appear until after the first chorus. When they recorded it the producer insisted it be moved up to the very head of the tune. Would it have been a hit otherwise? Who knows?

Hey Crank, thanks! I'll take all the luck I can get. Cool story...a producer earning his keep for once eh? lol Like you say, who knows. One thing though, if something works people have certain braggin rights. :D

[Keith]

Sorry about the move JD. It was my mistake and was unintentional. Too many windows open and one wrong tap of a key.

I hope you understand and forgive:).

[Vortexan]

Superb thread here LB. This is one I'll be coming back to for updates.

[texastito]

Man, how did I miss this before today?!?!?! Great thread, and mucho thanks for taking the time to share some of your wisdom and experiences.

I've always wondered how this whole process took place.

Obviously, some newer singers are actual song writers too and get to release a lot of their own songs, but for new artists that simply sing and someone is trying to make a star out of them, do they just have songs thrown at them?

And I've always wondered how such seemingly "easy" songs are such big hits!!!

Speaking of "catchy" easy songs, ever heard of Kevin Fowler?

[Quit Beeping]

I have a problem in that I write poetry, but i don't know how to put it into a song.
I try to look for a chorus among the verses or something like that, but I'm a little lost. Should I just stop trying to write poetry and begin setting out to songwrite? What happens to me is I'm just struck by a line that comes into my head and it develops from that, I have never sat down and decided to write.

[Lazy Bee]

Sorry about the move JD. It was my mistake and was unintentional. Too many windows open and one wrong tap of a key.

I hope you understand and forgive:).


Keith, my brotha man!!! :) Thanks so much for moving this back. Forgive? You're the heart of JS, you know I feel that way. Don't give it a second thought..

I see more questions have been posted...awesome to be back in the lounge!!! :cool:

Off to work now though. I'll be back.

[t_shirtsnjeans]

I'd LOVE to watch/partake in such a dialogue. Though I'll telll you, I am STAUNCHLY ensconced in the 'Write your OWN song' camp. While I'm fine with(and even grateful for) the fact that there IS a song shopping market, and don't mean understate the talent of those writers- My personal perception of it strikes me as artistically 'cheating'.
That is merely my take on it, and I will further qualify that by saying that I am not a real fan of todays country, or American Idol, or similar genres that deal in the separate writer/performer creative process.

Also, I hold concerns that this method (largely the business side) perhaps holds sway over turning the art of songwriting into a vapid, formulaic, almost 'sterile' experience, which I find to be the antithesis of 'creating'.
HOWEVER, (before someone hires the gunrack brigade to come find me) I have HUGE respect, and genuinely enjoy Lucinda Williams. But moreso when she plays her work herself.

Having said all that, I WOULD enjoy hearing about the process,trials and tribs and such about life in the 21st century Tin Pan Alley.


sean


Just thumbing through this thread and this caught my eye. I'm a writer and believe in playing my own stuff. But something occured to me about shopping out songs............we buy cars that others have designed, and THEN we fix them up to suit us, don't we? Why not do the same with lyrics others have written to sell? I can't believe after all these years of sticking to my 'write your own stuff' hard and fast rules to live by that I'd think of using someone else's songs to make them my own.

Hey, if it works for you then do it. I feel more comfortable with my own since for the most part I can't remember lyrics to save my life, so with my own stuff I can fudge and no one would know.;)

I'm glad you brought this up LB, and yeah, I've got a LOT of questions about writing so others would want to give me a living like other rich people have:p

[Lazy Bee]

I logged on today ready to do some serious key pounding and get to some of the questions I've fallen behind on. However, a returned pm from a friend here at JS who is on hard times has pointed me another direction.

Thanks for the interest in all this stuff everyone. If you are following this thread, please check back. I'll be posting again in a couple days.

[Tonedef]

What a great thread. I have been writing lyrics since 7th grade hoping one day to do exactly what you are doing, but I have always wanted to be that singer/songwriter rather than just the writer. I squeeze this thread until it is nothing but a pulp:)

[Lazy Bee]

how do you even go about getting somebody to listen one of your songs?

Here in Nashville their are great opportunities if you beat the bush attending workshops and seminars to get heard. Publishers, hit writers, and other industry types often donate their time to come, listen, and offer critiques. It takes a little research and time to plug in to that scene. It's best to live here but it's certainly worth a persons time to visit and get a taste of it. Of all the stories I've heard in this town I've never heard one where a song was picked up at a workshop and went on to be a hit. It's really intended to be more of an educational process. Part of the machine I guess, it's also a part of the community. You know....come in unity. Professionals come and tell you they're listening for a hit, and they are. But the night usually turns into an evaluation process. If the publisher or guest is good at what they do and they're articulate, they can help immensely in helping you develop craft. Plus, you always pick up biz things and cool stories. By attending those regularly and networking, contacts can be made.

As far as cold calling and getting appointments with publishers and producers....it's very near impossible. Referrals are the name of the game. The thing you have to keep in mind is that publishers already have hundreds, even thousands of songs in their catalogue. They have staff writers turning in up to 25 songs a month per writer. The front office is trained to say... "Sorry, no soliciting"... You can drop a disc off and rest assured it's in the trash with the junk mail without even being heard. That's the official word. From time to time though I hear insiders say they listen to things that come in the mail. It's a long shot in the dark at best.

In attempts to get direct appointments I've e-mailed, written letters, and called. E-mails go unanswered, deleted I suppose. Letters...forget it. Phone calls are my favorites. The instant you say you're a writer you hear...."One moment please" and you get transferred to a recording that explains why they wont talk to you. lol You have to do your best to become part of the scene. Shake a lot of hands and open up the ticker a bit.


Playing writers nights here can be a great networking strategy.

The first and best stop for anyone wanting to get a song heard?...ha, I made you read all that to get to the chase.....Is a Performing Rights Organization, also known as PROs. You know.... ASCAP BMI SESAC

They "will" talk to you on the phone. I had a two year contract with BMI but now I'm with ASCAP. I prefer ASCAP because every employee from the President of the company on down is or has been an accomplished author, composer, writer, or publisher or all of the above. BMI? B stands for Broadcasters. I prefer Artists myself.

Each office (L.A. - New York - Nashville) has multiple people who work as writers reps. Find one you can talk to. If something didn't click with one person, remember their name, call back later and ask for a different rep. There's a strong possibility you could mail a song in. I would highly recommend some face time if at all possible. Nothing like a handshake and a face to go with a song. It's a people business too. If they don't advance the song, you will have at least started a relationship and established a contact.....to "send" more songs to later. ;)

Just remember, what you're asking someone to do is step up and take your song to a producer in hopes that they will spend 10 to 15 thousands dollars recording it so they can present to the label in hopes that they will spent a half a million dollars promoting it...... Are you sure you've picked the right song? Or do you want to write a another one? lol

I would encourage anyone to not be deterred by all that. If you're writing at a level you're proud of, don't hold back. Make the call. It's pure gold just to have someone in that position tell you they'll listen to more.

[tcanova]

Great thread here Mr. Bee! Sorry I missed this thread earlier, I sometimes forget to look up ^ on the showcase section. I have spent about 30 minutes of this evening parusing your answers to some excellent questions and the answers are fantastic reading and very informative. Thank you for taking time to do something like this, of course, I know for you it is a labor of love because the creation of music is your heart's desire.:)

[JimiHaynes]

JD. Have you ever heard of Taxi? I started a thread awhile ago regarding it. Just wondering if you've heard of it and if so, your thoughts compared to what you've dealt with. I've always felt like it was somewhat of a scam. Maybe I'm wrong.

http://www.taxi.com/


I personally can't thank you enough for this thread. Seriously! If I ever head to Nashville, rest assured I'm looking you up, just to shake your hand, not only for the music you've shared with us free of charge, but for this thread.

Edit to say: I'm not brown nosing. I really mean it. You have to pay to get this kind of information people. Thank you for your time regarding all of this.

[Lazy Bee]

My pleasure bro. Like Tony said I love this stuff. Come on down to Tennessee man!!!...I got a futon in the studio and a few cold beers waiting on ya! :)

I have mixed thoughts about Taxi. But I do know of a couple success stories through them so I guess they have their place and some merit.

I know two people who listen for them and have mixed feeling about them as well. lol It's interesting, they wrote an R&B song in the late 60s early 70s?... That song happened to be one of Snoop Doggs mothers favorite songs....He sampled it and used it on his debut record. The royalties have been immense for them all these years later!! That same song has been re worked into a Broadway play. They critique and teach here in town. One hit.....a great problem to have I guess. ;) I drop into their workshop from time to time...nice folks.

What's that old saying? Those who can, do.... and those who cant teach. There's a lot of teachers listening over at TAXI. In fact a lot of people in Nashville who've had one hit or a few cuts subsidize their income evaluating and teaching. People in those positions are always looking for what's wrong in a song. It's kind of a drag. I guess it trickles down because that's what A&R people do all the time. You have to decide where you stand with who's listening. Do you trust them? Or do you feel like they're desperate to qualify their purpose? These people can be helpful...especially for beginners. But on the other hand you do have have to ask yourself what they've done lately and find a balance somewhere. I'll listen to anyone who wrote a hit. And I'll take their thoughts seriously. Will I automatically do a re-write based on their opinion. No! Will I for an employed A&R rep? You bet!!

If something awesome falls into Taxis hands I do think they have the connections to push it forward though.