Modes in rock solos

[0.1 watts]

In this video I play all the significant modes you're likely to use in solos, dorian, aeolian, lydian, mixolydian etc.

Use of modes (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=p6MvyjbJmUU)

[Fendershredder]

0.1 watts C major, D dorian, F lydian, and G mixolydian are all the same scale. Using modes in this way doesn't have any modal effect over a chord sequence. If you've developed a tonal center around C, all the notes, regardless of how you rearrange them, are functioning around a C major tonality.

These concepts may be useful over static chords or short modal vamps, but not over preexisting key based chord sequences. I can hear the modes by themselves in your video, though, because you aren't play over a chord sequence, and thus the tonal center is simply dictated by your phrases, which are representative of those modes in most cases.

Would you mind if I posted a video response to this?

[MelonSnapple]

Great job! I'm going to learn some modes after school. They sound pretty useful for the kind of music I play.

[shiggity]

I learned all my modes but I think I use them wrong. i basically use them as a road map to the fret board which works, but I doubt its what the modes were intended for.

can someone who knows comment back on this?

[Mcoy]

Same here. I basically look at the modes as they appear on the fretboard as a continuation of the major scale pattern. If I want to go from C major to C dorian, i just shift the whole (fretboard) pattern by one 'position'.
Only time I actually use knowledge of these modes is when adding notes into a pentatonic scale.

[Fendershredder]

I learned all my modes but I think I use them wrong. i basically use them as a road map to the fret board which works, but I doubt its what the modes were intended for.

can someone who knows comment back on this?

This is the way most guitarists learn them, but it has nothing to do with modes in the sense of the tonalities they create by themselves. It's just how you name your major scale patterns. It isn't not modal if you play a different position of the same scale.

[0.1 watts]

0.1 watts C major, D dorian, F lydian, and G mixolydian are all the same scale. Using modes in this way doesn't have any modal effect over a chord sequence. If you've developed a tonal center around C, all the notes, regardless of how you rearrange them, are functioning around a C major tonality.

Very clever but that was never the purpose of the video, I believe I did say that C was the tonic. Also yeah I skipped phrygian and locrian but they aren't commonly used in rock.

I couldn't provide rhythm for myself, but I did try by bashing a few chords at the beginning of each mode. What I was hoping to prove was that these modes are there for use with any chord of a scale, and yes you can take it much further than that but I don't think I could make a video about that at my current level.

Be my guest and post a video response though, I'd like to hear some advice on how to do more with the modes

[Fendershredder]

Very clever but that was never the purpose of the video, I believe I did say that C was the tonic. Also yeah I skipped phrygian and locrian but they aren't commonly used in rock.

I couldn't provide rhythm for myself, but I did try by bashing a few chords at the beginning of each mode. What I was hoping to prove was that these modes are there for use with any chord of a scale, and yes you can take it much further than that but I don't think I could make a video about that at my current level.

Be my guest and post a video response though, I'd like to hear some advice on how to do more with the modes

Can you clarify something for me? After each mode were you playing a C major, or a C of the quality of the mode? I couldn't quite make it out.

Because, while by themselves, those modes are true to their purpose, in the context of playing over a static C major chord, they aren't.

[0.1 watts]

Ionian was with C major
Dorian was with D minor
Lydian was with F major
Mixolydian was with G major
Aeolian was with A minor

Some of the solos started off in a certain mode and ended up going back into ionian.

Finally I went straight from aeolian into a mix of all the modes played in different orders.

There were also a few accidentals in Lydian for the discerning ears!

[fused]

Ionian was with C major
Dorian was with D minor
Lydian was with F major
Mixolydian was with G major
Aeolian was with A minor

Some of the solos started off in a certain mode and ended up going back into ionian.

Finally I went straight from aeolian into a mix of all the modes played in different orders.

There were also a few accidentals in Lydian for the discerning ears!

If I understand what you're doing here, you are just harmonizing the C Major scale with this set of chords
and then jamming against it with the C Ionian scale.

Am I missing something here?

By the way, very brave going first, I give you a ton of credit and no matter what you were trying to teach, you play very well.
My hats off to you....

fused

[0.1 watts]

If I understand what you're doing here, you are just harmonizing the C Major scale with this set of chords
and then jamming against it with the C Ionian scale.

Am I missing something here?

By the way, very brave going first, I give you a ton of credit and no matter what you were trying to teach, you play very well.
My hats off to you....

fused

Thanks for the comment! I think that (unless I've really got the wrong end of the stick) the C ionian scale is the first of 7 diatonic modes which make up one key (in this case C). Modes are the glamorous term for 'scale boxes' which you might have been familiar with in the past (pentatonic boxes?) and can contribute quite nicely to a solo where there are chord changes, even though all the notes within all of the modes I played are simply A B C D E F and G. It really is that easy.

If there is something more complicated about them that I don't understand, I definitely haven't read about it on the online theory lessons I've been taking and I openly admit I'm a fool!

[Fizzed]

Thanks for the comment! I think that (unless I've really got the wrong end of the stick) the C ionian scale is the first of 7 diatonic modes which make up one key (in this case C). Modes are the glamorous term for 'scale boxes' which you might have been familiar with in the past (pentatonic boxes?) and can contribute quite nicely to a solo where there are chord changes, even though all the notes within all of the modes I played are simply A B C D E F and G. It really is that easy.

If there is something more complicated about them that I don't understand, I definitely haven't read about it on the online theory lessons I've been taking and I openly admit I'm a fool!

Before I say anything here, I just like to say that you do play well and I'm not trying to rip on you, just clarify.

There are numerous ways to utilize modes and yours is one of them.... but you are using them as patterns for the same scale. Think notes: C D E F G A B C. These are present in C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian, and B Locrian. The logical conclusion? They are all the same scale.
What you are doing is playing a C Major scale over a C major chord, a D minor chord, an F major chord, a G major chord, and an A minor chord. This does work - C, Dm, F, G, and Am chords are are all parts of the harmonized C scale. Why? Because they all contain the same notes as the C scale (C D E F G A B C). I'm sure you understand that a major chord's basic formula is 1 3 5, a minor chord's is 1 b3 5, and a diminished's is 1 b3 b5 so:
C Major triad: C E G = 1 3 5 based off C as the root
D minor triad: D F A = 1 b3 5 based off D as the root
E minor triad: E G B = 1 b3 5 based off E as the root
F Major triad: F A C = 1 3 5 based off F as the root
G Major triad: G B D = 1 3 5 based off G as the root
A minor triad: A C E = 1 b3 5 based off A as the root
B diminished triad = B D F = 1 b3 b5 based off B as the root

You'll notice that there's not a accidental to be found, just like in the base scale, C Ionian. You're playing the same notes. The chords are changing, not the scales.
Again, this is a valid approach. As you demonstrated, it works. It just isn't using modes to vary the sound - its finding the common denominator for a series of chords.

Perhaps another way to show this is by showing the formulas for the modes - it follows the same sequence as does the harmonized scale.
It's getting late on this end, so I'll just dictate the general feel of each mode:
Ionian: Major
Dorian: minor
Phrygian: minor
Lydian: Major
Mixolydian: Major (dominant, actually...as the V chord technically is)
Aeolian: minor (natural minor)
Locrian: diminished

You'll notice that this corresponds with the chords of the harmonized scale.
Technically, one could even say that these (C Major, D minor, E minor, etc.) are all the same chords.... all are based off of the same scale (a scale, by the way, is simply defined as an organization of notes in a logical way). If you've ever looked into chord substitutions, this is where that comes from.

So.... you could say that you were playing scale substitutions - different ways to play essentially the same thing.

Now.... to make the modes sound the way you were trying to:
If you wanted to create the characteristic traits of, say... the Lydian mode, you'd play a C Lydian (1 2 3 #4 5 6 7) over a C Major (or Maj7, or sus4, etc., depending on how perfectly you want it to match) chord. Just use it the way you'd use any other scale (harmonic minor, hungarian minor, hirojoshi... or whatever).
You can apply this modal concept to any scale in existence. ...or not in existence for that matter.

I hope this cleared it up for you. Again, I didn't mean to sound at all pretentious - this is a really tricky thing to get a grasp of. It took me forever and it still makes my brain twist if I think to hard about it.
And don't be discouraged! We're all just trying to help each other out. That's why we're here.

Rock on,
-Fizzed

[Fendershredder]

^sus4 under lydian would be a bad idea. You want a #4 not a natural 4. Anyway, good post Fizzed.

For any one who thinks they're playing modally when they change to a different position of a major scale, take this into consideration.

If I play this melodic figure here:

E-8-7-------------------
B-----10-8---------------
G----------10-9----------
D---------------9-10-----
A------------------------
E------------------------


And then play it here, in the same octave;



E----------------------------
B-13-12------------------------
G-------14-12-------------------
D--------------15-14----------
A--------------------14-15---
E-----------------------------


Has anything changed? No, I'm just playing it in a different region of a fretboard. The first one sits in your basic major shape, with the root on the low E. The second fits into your "phrygian" or the major scale position with the root on the A string.

[Fizzed]

^sus4 under lydian would be a bad idea. You want a #4 not a natural 4. Anyway, good post Fizzed.

Whoops, my bad(ness). #11, then.:)

[Eclectifish]

Fendershredder is absolutely correct. Although, by definition, a mode could be considered playing the major scale starting on different notes, that is not the true use of modal playing.

Once you've established the key of the song, then you play the scale over that song. In the key of C, there are 7 chords which you can play and never leave the key of C, those include:

C maj, D min, E min, F maj, Gmaj or G7, A min, B dim. Those chords are created by stacking thirds above one of the notes of the c major scale, using the notes within the C major scale. And if you build a scale, starting on each of those notes, still using the notes from the C major scale, you'll end up with C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian, and B Locrian. But we've never left the key of C! (or, if you want to think modally, we're still in C Ionian). This is not modal playing. it's just playing the same scale starting on a different note.

To play modally, however, you would need to establish a different tonal center, which in the video, you did not. For example, If you firmly established a tonal center (key) of F, by playing a cadence or two resolving to F, then played F Lydian, you would be playing modally. But as long as the ear is hearing the key of C, you're not playing a mode when you do that.

So, how do you play modally? One way to think of it is overlaying one scale over another. First, let's examine what changes between the different modes. For this example, I'm only going to use Lydian, Mixolydian, and Dorian because they're the most commonly used in this sense (for good reason, they're the easiest).

First Lydian. Compare Lydian with the major scale and you'll only find one note different - the 4th tone which is one half step higher in Lydian than in a diatonic scale (and just for a refresher Diatonic Major and Ionian are the same). So let's say you're playing a solo in the key of C, and just decide to play around with an F# a bit (which quite naturally resolves to a G) - guess what! You're overlaying Lydian mode over the major scale. That's really all there is to it for most soloing (Quick note: It's important to understand that some songs are written, not in major keys, but in modes. What that means is that the entire scale, song, chords and cadences, are based on the mode, yet they resolve to the root of the mode - that's a bit stickier so we won't go there yet).

If we look at Mixolydian, we can think of it as a major scale with a flat 7. Play this over a regular major scale and you get an improvisational Mixolydian mode (Many people describe the blues as being in Mixolydian mode. I don't think that's an absolutely correct description because the chords of the blues don't exactly fit completely into Mixolydian, however you can certainly play Mixolydian over the blues and be quite happy - but there are better ways to play the blues - hence the various forms of pentatonic scale, blues scale, etc).

So what about Dorian. Well, it has a flat 3 and a flat 7 when compared to a major scale. Compare it to a minor scale (which, in pure form aka natural minor, IS Aeolian mode), though, and you'll find that Dorian is a minor scale with a sharp 6. This has a very nice sound when overlayed over a minor key. And, just like Lydian, it's easy to play because it's just one altered note.

Finally, what we're talking about here is using modes in improvisation. That's important to remember because we're not talking about playing in a mode (unless you consider playing in a minor key which, by definition, is aeolian mode - but only when you're playing natural minor aka Stairway to Heaven or All Along the Watchtower - Altered minor scales such as Melodic and Harmonic (and, for that matter, Jazz) are somewhat different animals). And it's important to remember that we improvise based, not on chords, but on keys! If you play C - Dm - F - G - C, then you've never left the key of C. You don't have to worry about modes per chord - just play the C major scale and it will work. Ditto for minor. If you're playing Bm - A - G - A - Bm, you're firmly in the key of Bm and don't need to bother with thinking of which scale goes with which chord - just play in Bm. When a song is actually in a different mode, that means that the scale the song is based on is different, and therefore, so will the chords be. For example, if you play Em - Amaj - Em - Amaj - Em, then you're actually in Dorian mode! So what scale to play? Well, you could play E dorian, or you could just play D major (same thing). Just remember to resolve to some Em Chord tones when the time comes.

[fused]

Until I get the video stuff together, I’ll attempt to explain via the written word. :rolleye:

What .1 explained are the chords that will sound good under the C Ionian scale.

So let us summarize a bit… .1 basically taught that the C Ionian contains the following modes within itself, without altering any of the notes of the C Major scale
C Ionian
D Dorian
E Phrygian
F Lydian
G Mixolydian
A Aeolain
B Locrian

He also demonstrated how the C Ionian acted as each of these modes over these chords… And that’s fine. It’s one way of looking at modes. Although it won’t sound very modal. BUT he isn’t wrong… That is how the C Major scale behaves over these chords. Its a perspective thing.

SOOOOO You now know what modes live within the C Ionian. The C Ionian OWNS the above modes.

If you play from the given note, example D Dorian – D to D of the C Ionian scale and yup, you just played the D Dorian mode.
Now HOW you use it is up to you…. But you know the notes and have played that scale…


What you don’t know from this is how to find other C Modes…such as C Dorian, C Phrygian and so on from within other Ionian (Major) scales. Because the modes of C do not live in the C Major scale with the exception of the C Ionian.

So HOW DO WE FIND THE REST?
For example; I want a C Lydian….where does it live?

Without getting into extremely deep theory that will make everybody’s eyes glaze over (mine included)…yes, there is a very simple and basic way to find your way around.
Since I use it, we'll code name it the "fused's law". I didn't invent it though, I just use it.

MAGIC STEPS TO MODAL FREEDOM!!!!!!!
Memorize - 1 1 ½ 1 1 1 ½
1 = whole note
½ = um…..well…um…. HALF NOTE! Whew….got lost there for a minute

These intervals are in the negative direction…so going from C and stepping down by each interval you would have
C
Bb
Ab
G
F
Eb
Db
C
No really, if you understand this, you’re 99% of the way there. ;)

NOW if you map the Ionian scale for each of these notes to the C Modes (Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian etc) you would find:
C Ionan = C Ionian
Bb Ionian = C Dorian
Ab Ionian = C Phrygian
G Ionian = C Lydian
F Ionian = C Mixolydian
Eb Ionian = C Aolian
Db Ionian = C Locrian
C Ionian = C Ionian

You’re done…. Nothing more to worry about…. You can now find what OTHER major scales own each of the 'C' modes.



So now if you wanted to know where C Lydian lived, you would play a G Major Scale. See simple map above... G Ionian = C Lydian - THEY USE THE EXACT SAME NOTES!


And if you wanted to play the C Lydian scale, you would play the notes of the G Major scale from C to C. And guess what, the #4 of the Lydian formula in C would be an F# and wow, the G Major scale contains an F#!!!!!!!!!!!

And the rest of the notes follow the Lydian formula as well…… THIS works for each and every mode…


So lets say you're playing a C minor 7th chord and you want a minor sound, maybe the Aeolian sound so you'd want a 'C' Aeolian...you look at the magic map above again and you see Eb Ionian = C Aolian and now you know that you can play the Eb major (Eb Ionian) scale which by the way really does contain the same exact notes of the C aeolian scale. So you pick the Eb major scale and you jam your butt off over that Cm7 chord... Give it a try :)

If you can play ONE major scale pattern and move it around the neck and find the desired roots of the mode that you want from within that pattern, you can play that mode. My writing this is way way more difficult than you’re learning this….

Of course, I highly...HIGHLY....recommend that you learn more than one form of the major scales as that will open up the guitar neck for you.

So take ANY note that you want to find the modes for…
and walk that path 1 1 ½ 1 1 1 ½ in the negative direction until you map that mode in the mapping example above, and the resulting major scale, the ionian for whatever note you land on that matches the mode you want, within this magic formula, THAT Scale contains the mode that you seek.

And if you don't even know all the notes on the neck but can play the major pattern...and find the root, YOU can jam all over that mode without worrying about going out of bounds just by sticking to the notes of that pattern for that major scale. Of course picking the right mode is up to you.... There are many places to find that info and fizzed has layed out what you require as well.


Don't let this confuse you....IT JUST WORKS!
Well we could dig into the theory and all but I'm all for making it easy and useful to everybody at all levels.


I hopefully just broke it down to a very simple way to navigate the brutal modal seas. If not, I will try again…. Let me know.
And sorry for the verbose, I think trying to get all the info in here, even thoujgh its a simple concept, just somehow grows...

And .1 watts, thank you for letting me stop by and add to your already very good post. You have some serious potential. Keep at it.

Fused

[Strat Rat]

Nice tone and playing keep it up.
Hopefully we will all get some good stuff from this thread.

[Fendershredder]

im going to make a video tomorrow in response to this.

[Hig]

Until I get the video stuff together, I’ll attempt to explain via the written word. :rolleye:

What .1 explained are the chords that will sound good under the C Ionian scale.

So let us summarize a bit… .1 basically taught that the C Ionian contains the following modes within itself, without altering any of the notes of the C Major scale
C Ionian
D Dorian
E Phrygian
F Lydian
G Mixolydian
A Aeolain
B Locrian

He also demonstrated how the C Ionian acted as each of these modes over these chords… And that’s fine. It’s one way of looking at modes. Although it won’t sound very modal. BUT he isn’t wrong… That is how the C Major scale behaves over these chords. Its a perspective thing.

SOOOOO You now know what modes live within the C Ionian. The C Ionian OWNS the above modes.

If you play from the given note, example D Dorian – D to D of the C Ionian scale and yup, you just played the D Dorian mode.
Now HOW you use it is up to you…. But you know the notes and have played that scale…


What you don’t know from this is how to find other C Modes…such as C Dorian, C Phrygian and so on from within other Ionian (Major) scales. Because the modes of C do not live in the C Major scale with the exception of the C Ionian.

So HOW DO WE FIND THE REST?
For example; I want a C Lydian….where does it live?

Without getting into extremely deep theory that will make everybody’s eyes glaze over (mine included)…yes, there is a very simple and basic way to find your way around.
Since I use it, we'll code name it the "fused's law". I didn't invent it though, I just use it.

MAGIC STEPS TO MODAL FREEDOM!!!!!!!
Memorize - 1 1 ½ 1 1 1 ½
1 = whole note
½ = um…..well…um…. HALF NOTE! Whew….got lost there for a minute

These intervals are in the negative direction…so going from C and stepping down by each interval you would have
C
Bb
Ab
G
F
Eb
Db
C
No really, if you understand this, you’re 99% of the way there. ;)

NOW if you map the Ionian scale for each of these notes to the C Modes (Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian etc) you would find:
C Ionan = C Ionian
Bb Ionian = C Dorian
Ab Ionian = C Phrygian
G Ionian = C Lydian
F Ionian = C Mixolydian
Eb Ionian = C Aolian
Db Ionian = C Locrian
C Ionian = C Ionian

You’re done…. Nothing more to worry about…. You can now find what OTHER major scales own each of the 'C' modes.



So now if you wanted to know where C Lydian lived, you would play a G Major Scale. See simple map above... G Ionian = C Lydian - THEY USE THE EXACT SAME NOTES!


And if you wanted to play the C Lydian scale, you would play the notes of the G Major scale from C to C. And guess what, the #4 of the Lydian formula in C would be an F# and wow, the G Major scale contains an F#!!!!!!!!!!!

And the rest of the notes follow the Lydian formula as well…… THIS works for each and every mode…


So lets say you're playing a C minor 7th chord and you want a minor sound, maybe the Aeolian sound so you'd want a 'C' Aeolian...you look at the magic map above again and you see Eb Ionian = C Aolian and now you know that you can play the Eb major (Eb Ionian) scale which by the way really does contain the same exact notes of the C aeolian scale. So you pick the Eb major scale and you jam your butt off over that Cm7 chord... Give it a try :)

If you can play ONE major scale pattern and move it around the neck and find the desired roots of the mode that you want from within that pattern, you can play that mode. My writing this is way way more difficult than you’re learning this….

Of course, I highly...HIGHLY....recommend that you learn more than one form of the major scales as that will open up the guitar neck for you.

So take ANY note that you want to find the modes for…
and walk that path 1 1 ½ 1 1 1 ½ in the negative direction until you map that mode in the mapping example above, and the resulting major scale, the ionian for whatever note you land on that matches the mode you want, within this magic formula, THAT Scale contains the mode that you seek.

And if you don't even know all the notes on the neck but can play the major pattern...and find the root, YOU can jam all over that mode without worrying about going out of bounds just by sticking to the notes of that pattern for that major scale. Of course picking the right mode is up to you.... There are many places to find that info and fizzed has layed out what you require as well.


Don't let this confuse you....IT JUST WORKS!
Well we could dig into the theory and all but I'm all for making it easy and useful to everybody at all levels.


I hopefully just broke it down to a very simple way to navigate the brutal modal seas. If not, I will try again…. Let me know.
And sorry for the verbose, I think trying to get all the info in here, even thoujgh its a simple concept, just somehow grows...

And .1 watts, thank you for letting me stop by and add to your already very good post. You have some serious potential. Keep at it.

Fused

thank you soo much for explaining this in a way thats understandable, it usually goes strait over my head when people start talking too deeply about thoery (although it helpfull because it gives you something to think about), ive been really concentrating on learning some thoery but the deeper you get into the rabbit hole the complicated it seems to get. its refreshing to read a post and understand it without having to really study it and rack my brains for what it means. cheers man

[Hig]

im going to make a video tomorrow in response to this.

hey fendershedder, is there any chance that you could record the video so that we get a good view of your fretting hand? i dont know about everyone else but i just find it easier to understand if i can actually see what your doing.

love this new video section by the way! although theres not to much on it at the moment i can tell its gonna be so helpfull to alot of people. good call!!

[Eclectifish]

Okay - short version...

Lydian mode = Major scale (Ionian) with a #4. That's it.
Play a song in C major and practice it with a major scale. Then do the same practice, but this time sharp the 4th scale tone. You're now playing Lydian.


Dorian mode = Minor Scale (Aeolian) with a #6. Play a song in a minor key using a minor scale. Sharp the 6th scale tone. Dorian.

[Hig]

Okay - short version...

Lydian mode = Major scale (Ionian) with a #4. That's it.
Play a song in C major and practice it with a major scale. Then do the same practice, but this time sharp the 4th scale tone. You're now playing Lydian.


Dorian mode = Minor Scale (Aeolian) with a #6. Play a song in a minor key using a minor scale. Sharp the 6th scale tone. Dorian.

haha, very short version. im not saying i dont like the more indepth responses, its just that modes seem to be so complicated that its good to have somebody explain in lamens terms, lol.

so are do modes only work over single chords? for instance could i play the C lydian mode over a whole song in the key of C or only over a C chord, because if i carried on playing with the C lydian mode over each chord in a proggression then the F# must clash somewhere along the line?

[fused]

thank you soo much for explaining this in a way thats understandable, it usually goes strait over my head when people start talking too deeply about thoery (although it helpfull because it gives you something to think about), ive been really concentrating on learning some thoery but the deeper you get into the rabbit hole the complicated it seems to get. its refreshing to read a post and understand it without having to really study it and rack my brains for what it means. cheers man


Hig

You're very welcome... :)



Okay - short version...

Lydian mode = Major scale (Ionian) with a #4. That's it.
Play a song in C major and practice it with a major scale. Then do the same practice, but this time sharp the 4th scale tone. You're now playing Lydian.


Dorian mode = Minor Scale (Aeolian) with a #6. Play a song in a minor key using a minor scale. Sharp the 6th scale tone. Dorian.

Yeah EFish, you definitely get the short version award.... :LMAO:

fused

[Fendershredder]

haha, very short version. im not saying i dont like the more indepth responses, its just that modes seem to be so complicated that its good to have somebody explain in lamens terms, lol.

so are do modes only work over single chords? for instance could i play the C lydian mode over a whole song in the key of C or only over a C chord, because if i carried on playing with the C lydian mode over each chord in a proggression then the F# must clash somewhere along the line?

Single chords are one of the most effective ways, yes. The more chords you add, and line up together the more you're going to get the sound of a major or minor key - thats just the nature of harmony.

Modal music predated harmony, remember that. Modal music is also diatonic to the mode, otherwise it becomes obscured and sounds like a major or minor key which is loose and not based on just one scale.

Ironically, I'm working on a piece that starts in C lydian. If you listen, you can sort of hear my approach.

http://www.box.net/shared/jd1b97xpxt

I am just droning a C under everything, and emphasizing E and F# above it to communicate the tonality. It modulates to C#m after a bit...but just listen to the first part.

[Eclectifish]

haha, very short version. im not saying i dont like the more indepth responses, its just that modes seem to be so complicated that its good to have somebody explain in lamens terms, lol.

so are do modes only work over single chords? for instance could i play the C lydian mode over a whole song in the key of C or only over a C chord, because if i carried on playing with the C lydian mode over each chord in a proggression then the F# must clash somewhere along the line?

Not really. Some people try to change modes by chord and there's nothing particularly wrong with that, but it's complex and mentally taxing (at least until you get to the point where you do it without thinking about it - that's a whole 'nother trick indeed). This is more true in the more complex styles, specifically jazz, where the key center can change many times in a song.

But most forms of music tend to stay around a key center. For example, in the key of E, any of the following chords are still within that key:

E, F#m, Gm, A, B, C#m, D#dim (those are the triads)
or for 7th chords:
Emaj7, F#m7, Gm7, Amaj7, B7, C#m7, D#m7b5

Those are the chords in the key of E major (NOT E minor, that's different, but this is just an example). A song in the key of E major, then, could use any of those chords and you'd still be just fine playing the E major scale. So the question is: When is it OK to use Lydian? Will it clash? Sometimes, yes. The interesting thing about Lydian is that the sharp 4th scale tone tends to create a chromatic leading to the 5th scale tone, so use it that way if you're overlaying Lydian over the major scale. Essentially, the #4 is used as a passing tone, almost always resolving up to 5. If you do that, then the dissonance is very temporary and the resolution very pleasing. If you think that's odd, then consider that the regular 4 (from the major scale) is also a dissonant note. It can be used nicely as a chromaticism going down to the 3rd scale tone.

So what are the rules? Well, there are probably more of them than I know. My best recommendation, now that you're getting a better grasp on this, is just to try out overlayed modes and see what works. In the end, your ear is the ultimate guide.

[0.1 watts]

Sorry I haven't had the chance to reply earlier, but I've read through these posts and it's been really good to see the modes explained in detail. I did know all this information already however, and my approach wasn't really to teach anyone to find the key of a modal sequence. The accidentals were thrown in when I was playing lydian. I switched to aeolian briefly which some could say was changing the tonal centre to G#. I would personally call it screwing up but pretending it was deliberate!

[Fendershredder]

There is no key in a modal sequence! Keys are only major or minor!

[ModestCargo]

If we look at Mixolydian, we can think of it as a major scale with a flat 7. Play this over a regular major scale and you get an improvisational Mixolydian mode (Many people describe the blues as being in Mixolydian mode. I don't think that's an absolutely correct description because the chords of the blues don't exactly fit completely into Mixolydian, however you can certainly play Mixolydian over the blues and be quite happy - but there are better ways to play the blues - hence the various forms of pentatonic scale, blues scale, etc).
This is kind of what I was going to say but..

The reason people think of blues as mixo is the dominant 7th chords and tonalities used almost exclusively in blues playing relate to the mixolydian scale. If in a twelve bar blues you want a major sound you'd be largely playing on the major blues scale - but if and when you want to grab other notes for effect you'd be usually either playing notes out of the mixo scale or using chromatic notes for "passing" or "approach" effect.

Of course you can play minor blues licks (minor blues scale, and its related minor scales) over major chords but that's not what we're talking about here.

At least, that's how I think of it. Somebody please correct me if what I'm saying is off base at all.

[Eclectifish]

This is kind of what I was going to say but..

The reason people think of blues as mixo is the dominant 7th chords and tonalities used almost exclusively in blues playing relate to the mixolydian scale. If in a twelve bar blues you want a major sound you'd be largely playing on the major blues scale - but if and when you want to grab other notes for effect you'd be usually either playing notes out of the mixo scale or using chromatic notes for "passing" or "approach" effect.

Of course you can play minor blues licks (minor blues scale, and its related minor scales) over major chords but that's not what we're talking about here.

At least, that's how I think of it. Somebody please correct me if what I'm saying is off base at all.
Blues is different because every chord is a 7th chord (that describes most, not all blues. Many blues tunes are quite diatonically arranged - especially in the jazz genre - but I digress).

So standard blues uses three 7th chords. There is no diatonic scale or mode which covers 3 7th chords - not even mixolydian. This is why the pentatonic and blues scales work best over blues - they leave out the notes which would clash more.

But if you really consider classic standard blues with the I7 IV7 and V7, there's actually a modulatory element there. It really does have a sense of changing keys (although it's chromatic in the way it changes - more on that in a sec). So, the really good blues players don't necessarily stand on a single scale for the entire tune - they'll change. For example, in C blues, you'd play a C mixo on the I7, an F mixo on the IV7, and a G mixo on the V7. As importantly, though, a good blues player knows how and when to resolve to chord tones to accentuate the tonality of each chord.

Interestingly, the point of why blues works is because the tri-tones (often referred to as the "guide tones" in such instances - you'll see why) in the chords move chromatically. In C blues, for example, the tri tone (the interval between the 3rd and the 7th) is E(3rd) - Bb(7th). Move to the IV chord (F7) and it's Eb(7th) - A(3rd). The V (G7) is F(7th) - B(3rd). These three intervals move chromatically from one to the other. In fact, you can comp the blues with these notes only and it sounds very good. These guide tones are what makes the blues work. In fact, you'll find chromatic or near chromatic movement using the 3rd and 7th (even when they're not a tri-tone interval) in a great many good songs.

[0.1 watts]

There is no key in a modal sequence! Keys are only major or minor!

I think you misunderstood. I meant I wasn't teaching people to find the key from a modal sequence, I didn't word it perfectly.

[ModestCargo]

Blues is different because every chord is a 7th chord (that describes most, not all blues. Many blues tunes are quite diatonically arranged - especially in the jazz genre - but I digress).

So standard blues uses three 7th chords. There is no diatonic scale or mode which covers 3 7th chords - not even mixolydian. This is why the pentatonic and blues scales work best over blues - they leave out the notes which would clash more.

But if you really consider classic standard blues with the I7 IV7 and V7, there's actually a modulatory element there. It really does have a sense of changing keys (although it's chromatic in the way it changes - more on that in a sec). So, the really good blues players don't necessarily stand on a single scale for the entire tune - they'll change. For example, in C blues, you'd play a C mixo on the I7, an F mixo on the IV7, and a G mixo on the V7. As importantly, though, a good blues player knows how and when to resolve to chord tones to accentuate the tonality of each chord.
Yeah.. that's what I was kind of trying to say. :o

This would be a really good start to a guide on how to move beyond just raping the hell out of say the C minor blues scale, in a C twelve bar blues.

[Fendershredder]

When I play blues I use the minor pent as a template, and work out of the chord tones of the chord I'm over, while trying to utilize diminished ideas over the dom7's.

[t_shirtsnjeans]

So, if I'm understanding correctly, I don't understand, right?:LMAO:
This stuff is clear as mud. Kinda like biology of modes..........:eek: :D

[Fendershredder]

No it's clear as crystal. It's just most guitarists don't, and will never get it.

[fused]

No it's clear as crystal. It's just most guitarists don't, and will never get it.




And why do you think that is?

[Strat Rat]

Yeah.. that's what I was kind of trying to say. :o

This would be a really good start to a guide on how to move beyond just raping the hell out of say the C minor blues scale, in a C twelve bar blues.

I doubt it would sound good in the context of a standard 12 bar blues
but instead of the C7 and the cmin blues couldnt
you sub C-7 and C dorian.

To me that is the way modes do get used in composition.
Like mark seal for example and Satriani and probably lots more.
They write the progression in a certain key
But at some point in the song they substitute a chord from another mode for effect and improv opurtunity
(modal interchange) so instead of going to the diatonic chord you would expect. Lets say A major thgey May play A minor
Then of course they would have to solo over that section using the correct
minor mode. Then when that section is over the song returns to the norm
and you go back to the scale that you were using over the regular progression
As long as its the original chords of course

I doubt that clears anything up but it is a way that modes are used still in rock
I think its very common in Jazz but I cant say that is what they were thinking when they did it.
But my guess is yes

But for this to work I think all members of the band have to know its coming
So it is something that is written into the harmony and then you can solo
over the changes acordingly so there is still that spontaneous feel.

I havent messed with that in a while but i think I might because
I a bit foggy on the details again.

Anyway thanks again for posting the video.
Fender are we waiting on two from you now????? LOL
Just kidding I know its hard to make a quality product that wont be nit-picked to death.
Good luck

[Fendershredder]

And why do you think that is?

The vast amount of misinformation surrounding the concept, that is aimed at guitarists.

When you're sifting through ****, it's hard to know what to believe or take to heart.

[fused]

The vast amount of misinformation surrounding the concept, that is aimed at guitarists.

When you're sifting through ****, it's hard to know what to believe or take to heart.

I suppose you're right.

So how does someone who does understand this, get past that barrier and actually help others to understand? If everybody is already skeptical or too confused, is it a lost cause?

[Fendershredder]

I suppose you're right.

So how does someone who does understand this, get past that barrier and actually help others to understand? If everybody is already skeptical or too confused, is it a lost cause?

It depends on the context, I'm guessing.

If I were to teach someone one-on-one it'd be rather simple, but if I were to teach someone on a board where other people are preaching the opposite, then who is the person to believe?

[fused]

It depends on the context, I'm guessing.

If I were to teach someone one-on-one it'd be rather simple, but if I were to teach someone on a board where other people are preaching the opposite, then who is the person to believe?

I'd have to go with your point on context. I definitely have much less difficulty teaching any theory issues in a "One on One" basis.
I guess its because you can handle the questions that usually follow...on a real time basis.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever toyed with modes of other scales?
...
Harmonic Minor is a good one to start with. There's so many cool things to be had when you do this beyond he simple Major scale modes. And you treat these (or modes of any scale) as far as mapping to chord progressions etc...the same way that you do modes of he major scale.
Use their formulas as a guide.

[bluezone]

Hi Guys, I'm new here and just came across this. I think FenderShredder (for all his confidence) might actually being a little hard on the original poster. The key here is to always refer this discussion back to the lesson on this site on modes.

Now FS says...'C major, D dorian, F lydian, and G mixolydian are all the same scale. Using modes in this way doesn't have any modal effect over a chord sequence. If you've developed a tonal center around C, all the notes, regardless of how you rearrange them, are functioning around a C major tonality.'

Now whilst this is partially correct it also gets something slightly wrong. Yes Cmaj and Ddorian, for example, have the same notes and are all in the same scale, but if you have an underlying tonal centre of C, and play Cmaj, and D dorian, there is a crucial difference in that the interval structure changes from one to the other, when your root note changes from a C to D; it's that change in interval structure that alters the way you hear the notes.


That's how the lesson on this site teaches the differences in mode sounds. It gives you a C (or some other) tone and then you mess around with the different modes simply by altering the root note of the same scale (in this case Cmaj). So I don't think the initial poster was that far wrong, maybe didn't explain it enough, but that's different to being wrong.

I liked 'Fused law', but I use (again didn't invent) what I think is a much easier method. All the modes of the major scale follow the same order...Ionian, Dorian, Phyr, lydian....etc...

So lets say you want to find E Lydian. Well Lydian is the fourth mode of the major scale, so which major scale has E as its fourth note...? That'd be B..So play a Bmaj, but rooted around the E and you'll have the E Lydian (as long as the underlying tonal centre is an E)....Try it: typical Satch material. Tonal centre of E and play the Bmaj scale, but rooted on the E....

A Phry....well Phryg is the 3rd mode of the major scale, so which major scale has A as it's 3rd note?...That'd be F...so A phyrg has the same notes as an Fmaj scale you just need to use your ears to root it around the A....

I'd be interested in FenderShredders Vid (did that ever get made?) to show me where I'm wrong (if indeed I am). But the really important thing to grasp about modes is that you can't separate the modal sound and the underlying tonal centre (without the underlying tonal centre you'd just be playing a collection of notes). Which is why, as a guitar player, you aren't really that much in control of the mode you are playing - it's probably your bass player that has that honour. you can be fiddling around in A Phry to your hearts (and heads) desire, but if the underlying tonal centre isn't an F....forget it; and whoever heard of a bass player doing what they are told!

Lot of unnecessary mystery about modes...use your ears....:

[Fendershredder]

Now whilst this is partially correct it also gets something slightly wrong. Yes Cmaj and Ddorian, for example, have the same notes and are all in the same scale, but if you have an underlying tonal centre of C, and play Cmaj, and D dorian, there is a crucial difference in that the interval structure changes from one to the other, when your root note changes from a C to D; it's that change in interval structure that alters the way you hear the notes.

The intervalic structure changes, but only if you are hearing that D as tonic, and if the harmony is making C tonic, then you cannot imply D as the tonic. You can't melodically superimpose a new tonality over an existent one. Harmony is strong.

So lets say you want to find E Lydian. Well Lydian is the fourth mode of the major scale, so which major scale has E as its fourth note...? That'd be B..So play a Bmaj, but rooted around the E and you'll have the E Lydian (as long as the underlying tonal centre is an E)....Try it: typical Satch material. Tonal centre of E and play the Bmaj scale, but rooted on the E....
Yes, that's true, but only if you're playing in a vacuum, or in a context where you have an E drone, and not an E major tonality.


I'd be interested in FenderShredders Vid (did that ever get made?) to show me where I'm wrong (if indeed I am). But the really important thing to grasp about modes is that you can't separate the modal sound and the underlying tonal centre (without the underlying tonal centre you'd just be playing a collection of notes). Which is why, as a guitar player, you aren't really that much in control of the mode you are playing - it's probably your bass player that has that honour. you can be fiddling around in A Phry to your hearts (and heads) desire, but if the underlying tonal centre isn't an F....forget it; and whoever heard of a bass player doing what they are told!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NaW7SS-NRE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oapqDONWr58
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJri44ioUzo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTPmJ65K5wY

[bluezone]

FS says: The intervalic structure changes, but only if you are hearing that D as tonic...

No sorry this is wrong. the intervalic structure changes irrespective of any tonic...The Cmaj has a half step from 7 to 8 the D dorian a full step. And this the same irrespective of any tonal centre. The rest of what you say is right. However, one of the best ways of learning the different modal sounds is to play a drone note (say in C) and then play the different C modes over that drone, and it is the changing intervalic structure that makes them sound different ...But the intervalic structure of Cmaj (C Ionian) is different to that of D dorian, even though they are both taken from the same scale (however, I will admit that I didn't stress enough that you can't just play a tonal centre of C, for example, and then play a D dorian and get the D dorian modal sound - to do that you'll need a tonal centre of D). I think we might be saying the same thing here, but in different ways...

Even your own 2nd vid makes it clear that without any tonal centre (maybe you mean the D as root, but that's different and even so it does not change the fact that the intervalic structure changes irrespective of any tonal centre, and if you didn't have D as the root it wouldn't be D dorian) the intervals change...

FS says: 'Yes, that's true, but only if you're playing in a vacuum, or in a context where you have an E drone, and not an E major tonality.'

Sorry, don't know what your point is here I clearly say....'as long as the underlying tonal centre is an E'....

Also, please, I said, which I'm not sure any of your vids say otherwise is:

But the really important thing to grasp about modes is that you can't separate the modal sound and the underlying tonal centre (without the underlying tonal centre you'd just be playing a collection of notes). Which is why, as a guitar player, you aren't really that much in control of the mode you are playing - it's probably your bass player that has that honour. you can be fiddling around in A Phry to your hearts (and heads) desire, but if the underlying tonal centre isn't an F....forget it; and whoever heard of a bass player doing what they are told!

:LMAO:

[Fendershredder]

No sorry this is wrong. the intervalic structure changes irrespective of any tonic...The Cmaj has a half step from 7 to 8 the D dorian a full step. And this the same irrespective of any tonal centre. The rest of what you say is right. However, one of the best ways of learning the different modal sounds is to play a drone note (say in C) and then play the different C modes over that drone, and it is the changing intervalic structure that makes them sound different ...But the intervalic structure of Cmaj (C Ionian) is different to that of D dorian, even though they are both taken from the same scale (however, I will admit that I didn't stress enough that you can't just play a tonal centre of C, for example, and then play a D dorian and get the D dorian modal sound - to do that you'll need a tonal centre of D). I think we might be saying the same thing here, but in different ways...
I'm sorry, but I am completely correct.

If I'm playing over a chord progression in C major, the harmony is locked down to C. Everything moving and functioning around C. We start at C, we depart from C, we end at C. All these chords are relating to C, and any melodic line above that harmony is relating to C. If I start to pretend D is the tonic and play C major for a "dorian sound" nothing is going to change. All those notes in that scale are still relating to C, and thus the intervalic relationships have no aurally changed. The only way they will change is when a new tonic is established.

Even your own 2nd vid makes it clear that without any tonal centre (maybe you mean the D as root, but that's different and even so it does not change the fact that the intervalic structure changes irrespective of any tonal centre, and if you didn't have D as the root it wouldn't be D dorian) the intervals change...

The intervals change in a vacuum, they don't change over a key-based sequence that has already defined a major or minor key.


Sorry, don't know what your point is here I clearly say....'as long as the underlying tonal centre is an E'....
I'm saying: You're right, if you play B major over an E drone it sounds like E lydian. However, people misconstrue this as: if I play B major but accent E, ANYWHERE, its E lydian. This isn't the case if you're in the key of B major, or any tonality relative to B major. This approach would work if you were playing over a single E major triad, an E note drone, or some small sequence that communicated an E lydian tonality. I'm agreeing with you, basically.

[bluezone]

Ok I think we agree on most things, but one major difference, I am not wrong about the intervalic structure, you are:

Your claim: "The intervalic structure changes, but only if you are hearing that D as tonic..."

This is incorrect. The intervalic structure has nothing to do with the tonic. The intervalic structure of C maj (C Ionian) is:

Ionian C to C Half steps at at 3-4, 7-8 Same as major scale

The intervalic structure of D dorian (the 2nd mode of the maj scale) is:
Dorian D to D half steps are at 2-3, 6-7

This is not at all dependent on the tonic. The intervalic structure of a C maj is not the same as the intervalic structure as a D dorian, and neither structures are dependent upon what the tonic is. You are confusing the tonality (sound) of a mode with its' interval structure. The two are not the same.

But you are right there is a lot of nonsense talked about modes...:R

[Fendershredder]

Ok I think we agree on most things, but one major difference, I am not wrong about the intervalic structure, you are:

Your claim: "The intervalic structure changes, but only if you are hearing that D as tonic..."

This is incorrect. The intervalic structure has nothing to do with the tonic. The intervalic structure of C maj (C Ionian) is:
NO you're still wrong about that.

Yes, the intervalic structure between C MAJOR and D DORIAN is different...but something can't be said to be "D DORIAN" over a C MAJOR tonality- so the point is moot. If you aren't hearing the D as tonic the intervalic structure hasn't changed, because you're relating to a C major tonality, so everything is being heard in relation to C.

What you PERCIEVE as intervalic structure is COMPLETELY dependant upon what is being heard as tonic, because all the notes played thereafter at heard in relation to that tone. If we're in C MAJOR you can't hear "E phrygian" "D dorian" or any other relative mode, because every note is relating back to C, and thus, you will only be hearing a C major sound.

[bluezone]

Dear Me, I think you might have a slight arrogance problem FS...

I never (show me where?) said....that anything could be D Dorian over a C maj tonality...

Stick to the issue please, we are dealing with your claim that...."The intervalic structure changes, but only if you are hearing that D as tonic..." (These are you words, not mine!)

The interval structure of D Dorian has nothing...let me repeat nothing, to do with the tonal centre. The interval structure of D dorian remains the same even outside of any tonal centre....And you are again confusing the tonality (sound, perception; call it what you will) of a mode with its interval structure. Or let me just quote from the modes lesson on this website....'Any combination of notes that deviate from the major scale will yield a different interval structure. The interval structure is what gives the scale its characteristic sound quality or mood.'....'Dorian has this interval structure: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 8...The interval structure of a scale is very important. This is what defines the sound characteristics of the scale. The interval structure also dictates how and when a scale can be used.

Just give me one example please of when the 'interval structure' of the D Dorian changes when the tonal centre changes.

You know it's all very well to come on here and pretend to be Mr know-it-all, but really you have to be prepared to deal with the ACTUAL points made, not the ones you want to address.

I'll wait for that example, but won't hold my breath...:riff:http://guitar.zentao.com/forum/images/smilies2/riffer.gif

[Fendershredder]

Dear Me, I think you might have a slight arrogance problem FS...

I never (show me where?) said....that anything could be D Dorian over a C maj tonality...
Hmm? Arrogance? You're saying you're right...I'm saying I'm right...and we're providing reasons why.

This entire discussion, and the statement I made that you've been addressing is one in which I said playing "D dorian" or any relative mode of C over a C major tonality will not result in a different sound, because the intervalic hasn't changed when you're hearing C as tonic- you've repeatedly disagreed with this.


The interval structure of D Dorian has nothing...let me repeat nothing, to do with the tonal centre
It has everything to do with it. If you play what you recognize as "D dorian", which is synonymous with C major, but with the tonic on D...over a C major tonality...D dorian is nonexistent, because you cannot hear the intervals as they relate to D, only as they relate to C.

Dorian has this interval structure: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 8...The interval structure of a scale is very important. This is what defines the sound characteristics of the scale. The interval structure also dictates how and when a scale can be used.
Yes it does, but if you play D dorian over C you aren't going to be hearing that "b3" as a "b3" it's going to sound like the "4" because it's relating to C not to D.

What I'm saying is the intervalic structure is irrelevant, because you aren't HEARING the intervalic structure of any mode but C when you're in the key of C. Thus, it dictated by the tonal center.

You know it's all very well to come on here and pretend to be Mr know-it-all, but really you have to be prepared to deal with the ACTUAL points made, not the ones you want to address.
I've been addressing the same point for the last 4 posts...and this has nothing to do with me "pretending" I thoroughly understand and apply these concepts on a daily basis, I am going to chalk this up to you MISUNDERSTANDING what I'm saying. I'll record a video right now to express what I was saying with that original statement.

[Fendershredder]

Here's a video response. Hopefully this clears it up. Tell me if you disagree with what I've said here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reGGgpt-9vU

[bluezone]

Hi FS, yes I do disagree (not necessarily with the vid, but what you are saying here, in the vid you admit the interval structure remains constant - thanks for doing the vid btw), becos again, you continue to confuse the interval structure of a mode with with how it sounds in relation to an underlying tonal centre it is played against.

The interval structure is the relationship of whole steps and half steps that make a scale (mode) what it is. In D Dorian, the interval structure is fixed, it has to be, if it changed it would not be D Dorian. You just need to give me one example of when the interval structure D Dorian, which is, 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 8, changes when the underlying tonal centre changes. You've not done that, but keep repeating the point about how the mode sounds, or is perceived in relation to a tonal centre. But I've never suggested otherwise. In fact what I said, in my original post was....:

"But the really important thing to grasp about modes is that you can't separate the modal sound and the underlying tonal centre (without the underlying tonal centre you'd just be playing a collection of notes). Which is why, as a guitar player, you aren't really that much in control of the mode you are playing - it's probably your bass player that has that honour. you can be fiddling around in A Phry to your hearts (and heads) desire, but if the underlying tonal centre isn't an F...forget it"....

But the fact is, if you want people to be clear about what is going on with modes you need to be clear in your explanations, and as long as you continue to assert that...'The intervalic structure changes, but only if you are hearing that D as tonic..." then you are giving out misinformation, and I think we are on the same side here..

Incidentally, a deaf person can't hear the interval structure whatever the case is, but they can know and see the interval structure. The interval structure (the relationship of whole to half steps) is a mathematical concept not an aural one, and it's incorrect to suggest it might change, as you say yourself in the vid...it's constant....

Thanks,

[Fendershredder]

I still disagree. The intervalic structure DOES NOT EXIST as you hear it over C. Therefore it does not come into play, and does not EXIST until D is the tonic.

[bluezone]

Sorry, so the D Dorian interval structure of 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 8, doesn't exist until D is the tonic? Do you really want to say that? Well at which point is a bit like gravity really. The interval structure clearly exists, whether you believe it or not. I've given it to you for D Dorian over and over, you simply are not prepared to admit you are wrong. I can't do anything about that, but I'm still waiting for an example of it changing, and keep in mind you can learn the interval structure of every mode and scale (classically trained musicians do so), without hearing it it context. The interval structure of a mode or scale is constant (and constant means does not change)...your own words on the vid...What more can I say....But at least you can now see why there is so much misinformation talked about modes...such as the claim...:

'"The intervalic structure changes, but only if you are hearing that D as tonic..." (something can't be both constant and subject to change)

The interval structure of a given mode never changes. And if you say it does, an example please?

Cheers,

:LMAO:

[Fendershredder]

Sorry, so the D Dorian interval structure of 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 8, doesn't exist until D is the tonic?
Yes, because it isn't heard as 1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7 until D is the tonic. Over C that intervalic structure does not exist, because those intervalic relationships don't exist as they relate to C.

The interval structure clearly exists, whether you believe it or not.
It doesn't exist until it's relating to a root. If it's relating to C, and not D, those relationships don't exist.

've given it to you for D Dorian over and over, you simply are not prepared to admit you are wrong
I proved I was right, and clarified what I said- watch the video.

The interval structure of a given mode never changes. And if you say it does, an example please?
The interval structure of a given mode never changes. I'm not disagreeing with this. D dorian is D dorian, the scale is 1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7. What I said was "the intervalic structure does not change until you hear the D as tonic". This is true. You can't hear the notes in C major in the intervalic structure that makes up D dorian until you are hearing them AGAINST a D, otherwise, the relationships do not exist. Perhaps a better way to hear it is, the intervalic structure of amode cannot be HEARD until the tonic of the mode is established so the relationships between the notes become clear.


Example? Watch the video. Play "D dorian" over a C drone, and tell me you're hearing 1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7-1, rather than: 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-1.

:LMAO::LMAO::LMAO::LMAO::LMAO::LMAO::LMAO::LMAO::L MAO::LMAO:

The best thing about this is you're still trying to argue with me, and you had the audacity to call ME arrogant. I've explained what I said, and what I meant by it. You confirmed you did not disagree with what I said once I explained it and played it. So why are you still arguing? What's left to argue about? Did the video not settle this?

[bluezone]

Why do you continue to insist that the existence of the interval structure is dependent on hearing it. As I previously said the interval structure is a mathematical concept, not an aural one...Jesus it's like talking to a 5 yr old. I can give you the interval structure of every scale and mode without you hearing any of them.

Hence it does not have to be HEARD to exist....and the intervalic structure of D Dorian does not relate to C or anything..it simply is....1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 8,

I don't need to say anything more about it...

"It doesn't exist until it's relating to a root. If it's relating to C, and not D, those relationships don't exist."

Again,. more confusion. The D Dorian, has a root, it's called D...and the C Dorian root is called C, but the interval structure of both is 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 8, . I'm seriously beginning to think you don't know what you are talking about.

"I proved I was right, and clarified what I said- watch the video.". No you contradicted yourself. The interval structure is constant you said (which incidentally proves I've already watched the vid - keep up please!).

Now we get to the rub...compare...

Some simple logic...

Statement 1:"The intervalic structure changes..."
Statement 2:"The interval structure of a given mode never changes."
:confuse:

Please, you know, kids get taught basic rule of logic very early on. Statement 1 and Statement 2 are called a 'contradiction'... One has to be wrong.

Also you keep returning to the perception/hearing issue, when the interval structure is not an aural concept.

Yes i do keep arguing with you: I have a misguided belief in the ability of humans to accept logical argument (and outright self-evident self-contradiction; people tell me this belief of mine is naive). You are, I must admit, challenging this belief. But in the process you have indeed revealed yourself to be what you are; which was already evident from your arrogant posts re this issue...

Finally, "Did the video not settle this?" No, because you continue to insist, both that the interval structure remains constant, yet changes. And I'm still waiting for an example of change.... So either provide that, or simply admit that your claim that the 'The intervalic structure changes..' was wrong...It's not hard, really!

[Fendershredder]

Why do you continue to insist that the existence of the interval structure is dependent on hearing it
Because we're talking about music. An aural form of art. The intervalic structure has everything to do with how we hear, because it is perceived as having a certain intervalic structure because of what tonic the notes are relating to.

I can give you the interval structure of every scale and mode without you hearing any of them
Yes, but you won't hear it as such unless you the tonic of each mode/scale is established, thus, it is irrlevant to regard, in this case, "D dorian" as such when it's being played over C- it isn't D dorian anymore.

Jesus it's like talking to a 5 yr old
Mature.

Again,. more confusion. The D Dorian, has a root, it's called D...and the C Dorian root is called C, but the interval structure of both is 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 8, . I'm seriously beginning to think you don't know what you are talking about.

I'm not too concerned with what you think I know or don't know. It's clearly obvious through my various videos on modes I fully and thoroughly understand these concepts.

No you contradicted yourself. The interval structure is constant you said
No I didn't. The intervalic structure is consistent as it relates to the scale, aurally it is non existent when played over a C. This is the entire point. Your argument is purely semantic and you're so arrogant and driven by ego that you can't accept that the issue here is a misunderstanding on your part. I've clarified what I meant- and you agree, yet you continue to go back to a single statement that you're OBVIOUSLY misinterpreting, infact, it's almost as if you're trying NOT to understand what I've been saying.

Please, you know, kids get taught basic rule of logic very early on. Statement 1 and Statement 2 are called a 'contradiction'... One has to be wrong

Kids also learn that context rules. Taking two statements out of context and ignoring the surrounding statements and consequently the conclusion gets you nowhere.


Also you keep returning to the perception/hearing issue, when the interval structure is not an aural concept.
But it is aural. The relationships are aural. "b3" describes a sound, as well as an intervalic distance. The issue here is: If I'm relating things to see and I hear an F. It sounds as the 4th of C, not the 3rd of D. That's why D dorian doesn't exist in the context of C being under it, and the intervalic structure doesn't exist/is irrelevant in that context.

You are, I must admit, challenging this belief. But in the process you have indeed revealed yourself to be what you are; which was already evident from your arrogant posts re this issue...
And what's that? What am I?

If we scan both of our posts in this thread it becomes very obvious who is arrogant. My entire argument has been to reach a mutual understanding. I have attempted to communicate my position through multiple angles and examples. I took the time to make a video to very explicitly clarify what I was trying to communicate. Intsead of accepting this you chose to capitalize and continue with your semantic argument. When frustrated you resort to name calling and attacks on my intelligence, character, and knowledge. It is very clear you've engaged in this argument to please your ego, not to reach a conclusion or a mutual understanding.

If your personal attacks continue I will be forced to report this thread to a mod and have it closed. I've been playing nice. You should too.

No, because you continue to insist, both that the interval structure remains constant, yet changes
I've clarified this numerous times.

The intervalic structure is constant when describing the scale in a vacuum. When playing the scale over a tonic that is not the scale's own, the intervalic structure is not present. Let me put this statement in context.

D dorian is a dorian scale built on D. This scale is described as 1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7. In the context of C major playing "D dorian" does not result in the communication of this interval set "1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7", it results in "C major"- thus the intervalic structure of "D dorian" is nonexistent, or not realized, because the intervals are not being heard against D.

[bluezone]

Oh my...a few quick points...

in this case, "D Dorian" as such when it's being played over C- it isn't D Dorian anymore.

A D dorian is a D Dorian whenever it is played, irrespective of context. If you do not know this then you need to go back to the drawing board....

Finally, more contradictory statements:

I said... "Originally Posted by bluezone 'No you contradicted yourself. The interval structure is constant you said"

Then you say..."No I didn't. The intervalic structure is consistent as it relates to the scale, aurally it is non existent when played over a C." (I'll leave alone the obvious ridiculous claim that the intervalic structure is non-existent...)

Only for you to finally say that...'The intervalic structure is constant when describing the scale in a vacuum.'

So, your claim that the intervalic structure changes is wrong, Yes? Report the thread to whoever you want. It won't change the facts of the argument...

Now, if you really want to reach understanding, try the following. 1. I had already made the point you are trying to make, that D Dorian only 'sounds' like D Dorian in the context of an appropriate tonal centre (so we do not disagree about that); so why you keep raising this issue escapes me. 2. You claim that the interval structure changes. I say it doesn't...who is right (we both know the answer here). 3. a flattened third is not aural at all. What does it sound like? A flattened C, a flattened E, a flattened F?. A flattened third is simply a mathematical designation of the relationship between notes in a scale. Tell me how a flattened 3rd sounds please? Really, the claim that ....."b3" (a flattened 3rd) describes a sound, is priceless and displays very little understanding of music; just what frequency is that sound at?

However, I'm not actually bothered any of this...but let me point out your previous arrogant statements...

"No it's clear as crystal. It's just most guitarists don't, and will never get it. "

Oh never will, but you do obviously!!! Well maybe not eh!

"The vast amount of misinformation surrounding the concept, that is aimed at guitarists. When you're sifting through ****, it's hard to know what to believe or take to heart."

sifting through what exactly, claims that the interval structure changes...no really?

That'll do for now...report away..it won't alter the status of your confusion...

Oh, one final thing, I'm still waiting for the example of a mode's interval structure changing....

[fused]

Wow..... Just wow....

If newbies weren't confused before, they certainly are now...

>>Hence it does not have to be HEARD to exist....and the intervalic structure of D >>Dorian does not relate to C or anything..it simply is....1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 8,
I'm going with this one....


>>The D Dorian, has a root, it's called D...and the C Dorian
>>root is called C, but the interval structure of both is 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 8, .
And I'll go with this one as well...

Can't see where either of these is incorrect...

My work is done here...

Don't make me bring JonR over here..... Don't make me!!!!

I return you to your normally scheduled programming ;)

fused

[Fendershredder]

D dorian is a D Dorian whenever it is played, irrespective of context. If you do not know this then you need to go back to the drawing board....
No it isn't. It seizes to be "dorian" as soon as it is played over it's relative major mode in a harmonic context involving that major key. Everything "dorian" about it disappears, and it is heard as major, because the relationships are nonexistent, and that of the relative major mode, not the dorian mode. Wonderful false dichotomy here, on your part, if you want to talk logic.

So, your claim that the intervalic structure changes is wrong, Yes?
No, and for you to think this you must have completely disregarded the statements before and after that one. Context my friend. CONTEXT.

Report the thread to whoever you want. It won't change the facts of the argument...
I'm not worried about the facts- I've been presenting them. I'm worried about your style of argumentation, and your obvious personal jabs at me, rather than logical responses to my sound argument.

1. I had already made the point you are trying to make, that D Dorian only 'sounds' like D Dorian in the context of an appropriate tonal centre (so we do not disagree about that); so why you keep raising this issue escapes me.
Because you keep bringing it up. It should have died as soon as I posted the video- you chose to bring it up again. If you've said this, and we agree, there is nothing to argue about.

You claim that the interval structure changes. I say it doesn't...who is right (we both know the answer here).
Me. It changes because you aren't even hearing the supposed tonic of the scale as the tonic. How could it possibly be the same?

3. a flattened third is not aural at all. What does it sound like? A flattened C, a flattened E, a flattened F?. A flattened third is simply a mathematical designation of the relationship between notes in a scale
The fact that I can sing one and tell you if one is played proves that it is aural, heh. b3 is just a minor third against any other note. In this case, against our tonic pitch. While D to F is still a m3 within the context of C, it is no longer "b3" as it isn't relating to the root (C). It's heard SIGNIFICANTLY differently, as the 4th plays a drastically different role than the m3 in a scale. :)

Also, wonderful ad hominem and thinly veiled sarcasm. You're really making headway here. Gaining lots of respect, and showing great patience.

Oh, one final thing, I'm still waiting for the example of a mode's interval structure changing....
Watch the video. I played D dorian against a C drone, it was no longer D dorian. The way the structure of the scale was heard changed, as the relationships changed because of what was heard as tonic.

[ScottRiley]

OK, this thread has ran it's course now, it's only getting confusing, if you guys want to debate do it personally, we're not having threads go into digs and jabs, it's about information, this could have been handled with a lot more tact, I hate seeing arguments over fact and information escalate like this. Thread is closed, there's enough misinformation around about modes the last thing we need is a to-and-fro argument that has gone from a disagreement in application of theory to a debate about semantics, if you have to continue this debate, please do it elsewhere.