Re: Triads. 3 + b3 is Major??? HUH???

[The Sentry]

The following is takin from the "Triad" lesson

Triads derive their name from the fact that each one contains only three intervals and the fact that the intervals in each are a 3rd apart:

major: 3 + b3
minor: b3 + 3
diminished: b3 + b3
augmented: 3 + 3

What this 3 + b3 stuff means is that if you were to start on a root note (C for example), and build a major triad, the second note in the triad (E) would be a 3rd higher than the root, and the third note of the triad (G) would be a b3rd higher than the second note (E).

Even though it's explained here I am having a hard time grasping this. Can someone please break it down and explain how a major triad would be 3 + b3, and minor is b3 + 3, etc. With the major triad I understand where the first 3 comes from but I can't grasp where the + b3 comes from. Why wouldn't it be 3 + 3? For example: C - E (3 intervals), E - G (3 intervals), hence 3 + 3. Please help me I really want to learn this but I just can't wrap my brain around it. Thanks.

[AcousticShred]

Sentry, this really is not a hard idea to grasp, but I don't like how the source you cited tries to teach it. Think of it as a standard C major scale

1 2 3 4 5 6 7
C D E F G A B

The numbers represent which degree of the major scale those particular notes are.

Now, if you looked at C to E, you would find that they are a third apart. In fact they are a major third. These have a nice and happy sound when played together.

If I decided to flatten the E to make it an Eb it would look like:

1 2 3b 4 5 6 7
C D Eb F G A B

Now the C to the Eb is minor and would make a minor third which is dark sounding.

What I think you are confused about is how the source you posted is trying to tell you that the distance to the major 3rd to the 5th of the major scale is a minor third. If you know how to play the major a scale on the guitar or piano play the E to the G (in C major) you will hear that these are a minor third apart.

Just because you are in a major key doesn't mean that key won't include minor chords and minor steps

[JonR]

The following is takin from the "Triad" lesson

Triads derive their name from the fact that each one contains only three intervals and the fact that the intervals in each are a 3rd apart:

major: 3 + b3
minor: b3 + 3
diminished: b3 + b3
augmented: 3 + 3

What this 3 + b3 stuff means is that if you were to start on a root note (C for example), and build a major triad, the second note in the triad (E) would be a 3rd higher than the root, and the third note of the triad (G) would be a b3rd higher than the second note (E).
I'm not surprised you're confused. :smile: This is badly worded and misleading.
Here's (IMO) the best way of understanding triads:

Triads derive their name from the fact that each one contains only three notes (not "intervals").

"The intervals in each are a 3rd apart".
This is nonsense. An "interval" is a measure between two notes. E.g., C-E is an interval of a "3rd", because E is 3 notes away from C.
The "intervals" in a chord, therefore, are not a 3rd apart. It's the notes themselves that are a 3rd apart. :smile: )
(You need to understand intervals to really get chord theory - it looks like your source is confused at least :hmmm: )

In any case, this is beside the point. Chords are best understood as intervals measured from the root, not as stacked thirds.

IOW, think of 1-3 and 1-5, not 1-3 and 3-5. There is an additional interval between the 3rd and 5th of each chord, but it's irrelevant in this context. (It matters in counterpoint theory, but not in chord theory.)

major: M3 + P5 (e.g., C (major) = C-E plus C-G)
minor: m3 + P5 (Cm = C-Eb plus C-G)
diminished: m3 + dim5 (Cdim = C-Eb plus C-Gb)
augmented: M3 + aug5 (Caug = C-E plus C-G#)

"Major" and "minor" chords - like major and minor scales - take their names from their 3rd intervals (the interval between root and 3rd.) A "major 3rd" has 4 semitones between its notes; a minor 3rd has only 3.
Both these chords have perfect 5ths (7 semitones), which are taken for granted (they don't affect the chord quality).
"Augmented" and "diminished" chords take their name from their 5th interval. When the 5th is altered (raised or lowered) it has more impact on the chord than the 3rd.
"Augmented" means a major or perfect interval that is enlarged by one semitone.
"Diminished" means a minor or perfect interval that is reduced by one semitone.

Therefore - if you like - a "major" chord has a major 3rd and (coincidentally) a perfect 5th.
An "augmented" chord has an augmented 5th and (coincidentally) a major 3rd.

JonR

[The Sentry]

Thanks guys for making it clearer...JonR, the M3 + P5 makes a hell of alot more sense to me. Major 3rd + Perfect 5th...simple. Thanks again.