Still a bit confused..haha :)

[kernix]

[quote=Eclectifish]I agree. But, through the years, I've gotten to the point where I 'visualize' the scale tone, based on the key root, and it's relationship to the chord tones of the key, the chord I'm on at the moment, and whatever chord I'm about to play. While I find the concept of modes to be of no help here whatsoever, the knowledge of chord structure and scale structure is paramount.
QUOTE]

To me, modes - or - and intervals or scale tones related to the tonic - are the same thing - if I want to play a scale/more with a M2 in it - assuming I know where the root is, I also know where the 9's are - if however I want b9's, same thing. 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of another....

[broken.]

Alright I am doing that right now and this is what I have so far, tell me if I am on the right path.

I am also frusturated.. I am playing a song in B, which consists of the chords B, G#m, F#, E, a simple chord progression. But I cannot use any scale to make some sort of riff to go over those chords. This is driving me in insane.. with all the theory that I know on Modes this would tell me that these notes are in the E Ionian Mode all scross the neck... but it just doesn't seem to fit. Or I cannot come up with somethign easily..


Here is what i Have so far:

KEY OF C

MAJOR

Major Scale: C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C (0 Sharps)

*Stacking Thirds to get the basic triads

Scale Degrees:
I – ii – iii – IV – V – vi – vii

Diatonic:
Maj – Min – Min – Maj – Maj – Min – Dim

Intervals: (Major Scale)
1 – 2 - 3 – 4 -5 – 6 – 7

Cmaj – C E G
Dmin – D F A
Emin - E G B
Fmaj – F A C
Gmaj – G B D
Amin – A C E
Bdim – B D F

Cmaj7 – C E G B
Dmin7 – D F A C
Emin7 – E G B D
Fmaj7 – F A C E
Gmaj7 – G B D F
Amin7 - A C E G
Bdmin7 – B D F A

MINOR

Relative Minor: C / Am

Natural Minor Scale: A B C D E F G A B C D E F G A (0 Sharps)
( b3 – b6 – b7 compared to A major scale)

* Stacking Thirds to get basic triads

Scale Degrees: (d = diminished)

i-ii(d)-III-iv-v-VI-VII

Diatonic:

Min – Dim – Maj – Min – Min – Maj – Maj

Intervals: (Natural Minor)
1 – 2 – b3 – 4 – 5 – b6 – b7

Amin – A C E
Bdim - B D F
Cmaj - C E G
Dmin - D F A
Emin - E G B
Fmaj - F A C
Gmaj - G B D
------------------------------

[JonR]

Originally Posted by broken.

Alright I am doing that right now and this is what I have so far, tell me if I am on the right path.

I am also frusturated.. I am playing a song in B, which consists of the chords B, G#m, F#, E, a simple chord progression. But I cannot use any scale to make some sort of riff to go over those chords. This is driving me in insane.. with all the theory that I know on Modes this would tell me that these notes are in the E Ionian Mode all scross the neck... but it just doesn't seem to fit. Or I cannot come up with somethign easily..

If you're in the key of B (which you are), then you need...
....
....
...the B major scale! (Ta-daaaa)

Yep, it's that simple. Call it B ionian if you want, but you can use any B major pattern.
(It's not E ionian/major, because the F# chord has an A# note.)

The rest of your post is all correct, except:

(1) G-B-D-F = G7, not Gmaj7. "maj7" refers to the 7th interval (not the triad). A "major 7th" is 11 half-steps above the root. An ordinary "7" (minor 7th or b7) is 10 half-steps. G-F is a minor 7th (b7), but we call it plain "7" in the symbol.

"Gmaj7" would be G-B-D-F# (G triad with major 7th).
"G7" = G-B-D-F (G triad with 7th)
"Gm7" = G-Bb-D-F (G minor triad with 7th)
"Gm(maj7) = G-Bb-D-F# (G minor triad with major 7th - tonic chord in G harmonic and melodic minor)

(2) the chord B-D-F-A is called Bm7b5, or B "half-diminished".
"Bdim7" is B-D-F-Ab (vii chord in C harmonic minor).
This is just one of those slightly weird bits of theory.
The interval B-Ab is a "diminished 7th" (hence the chord name).
B-A is a minor 7th.
So the chord B-D-F-Ab has 2 diminished intervals (5th and 7th), while B-D-F-A has only one (the 5th). Hence "half-diminished".
That's how I make sense of it anyhow .

[broken.]

If you're in the key of B (which you are), then you need...
....
....
...the B major scale! (Ta-daaaa)

Yep, it's that simple. Call it B ionian if you want, but you can use any B major pattern.
(It's not E ionian/major, because the F# chord has an A# note.)

This is exactly what I do not understand.
IF you tell me that I can play any pattern in the B ionian, then does that include C# Dorian, Eb Phrygian, etc..?? Does that ALLL mean B Ionian? Because then what is the diffrence of playing in B Dorian because its all the same notes as the B ionian just starting on a diffrent root? Also not all of the B ionian sounds good over that chord progression why is that? Im seeing the G#m so that perhaps means I"d have to use some sort of minor scale, perhaps natural minor.

[Eclectifish]

This is exactly what I do not understand.
IF you tell me that I can play any pattern in the B ionian, then does that include C# Dorian, Eb Phrygian, etc..?? Does that ALLL mean B Ionian? [/quote]
Simply put: Yes! B Ionian = C# Dorian = D# Phrygian = E Lydian = F# Mixolydian = G# Aeolian = A# Locrian. They are all the exact same notes.

Here's the deal:

Ionian is the same thing as the major (diatonic scale). Exactly the same, just different names.

Dorian is the same notes as the major scale, but starting on the 2nd scale tone.

Phrygian is the same notes as the major scale, but starting on the 3rd scale tone.

Lydian starts on the 4th major scale tone

Mixolydian starts on the 5th

Aeolian on the 6th

Locrian on the 7th.

Furthermore, The Natural Minor is the exact same scale as the Aeolian.

Originally Posted by broken.

Because then what is the diffrence of playing in B Dorian because its all the same notes as the B ionian just starting on a diffrent root?

No! B Dorian is NOT the same as B Ionian. They do NOT use the same notes. B Dorian would be the same as playing an A Ionian, since B would be the 2nd scale tone of the A Ionian mode/major scale.

Originally Posted by broken.

Also not all of the B ionian sounds good over that chord progression why is that?

Even in a scale there are passing tones. For example, the 4th scale tone doesn't sound good over the root chord (in this case E over a B chord) because it's dissonant against the chord. If you play that tone you need to be moving from note to note, usually to the 3rd. Most of the other notes will work over that chord, but I want to reemphasize that chord tones (ie arpeggios) are more important than scales. Every note in every chord in that progression is contained in the B major scale. That doesn't mean that you can hammer on any note in the scale. The chord is more important. The scale is just a theoretical starting point.

Originally Posted by broken.

Im seeing the G#m so that perhaps means I"d have to use some sort of minor scale, perhaps natural minor.

No. The G#m is used in the context of a B major tonality. Technically, in that tonality, you'd use a G# Phrygian mode, but that, again, is nothing more than a B major scale. I G# minor scale would have a sharp 4 in relation to the key and, while that might not be bad, it could be. The point is, you don't play a different scale over every chord. You play the scale of the key! (Well, at least you start there).

[JonR]

EDIT: Most of this echoes what Eclectifish said above, which I hadn't seen when I wrote the following. But in the interests of weighing in with the old one-two knockout punch, here it is anyway... )

Originally Posted by broken.

This is exactly what I do not understand.

Hmm, for some reason you're not seeing the wood for the trees... (It's OK, you're not being dumb, but you're somehow missing simple points.)

Originally Posted by broken.

IF you tell me that I can play any pattern in the B ionian, then does that include C# Dorian, Eb Phrygian, etc..?? Does that ALLL mean B Ionian?

Yes, in effect. (Except that it should be D# phrygian. Remember the enharmonic rule. One of each note in a scale. And no mixing of sharps and flats in major keys.)

Originally Posted by broken.

Because then what is the diffrence of playing in B Dorian because its all the same notes as the B ionian just starting on a diffrent root?

I guess you mean C# dorian, but there is no difference - well, not a modal difference anyway. Why do you expect there should be? B major is one scale. The "B major key" IS "B ionian mode" - both phrases mean the same thing. The other modes of the scale are irrelevant.
I mean, you can use any PATTERN of B major, and give it a modal name - but it won't give you a modal sound. Not unless the chord you're playing over lasts a hell of a long time (so your ear is distracted away from the overall B key centre). And in any case (as we keep saying to this kind of question), you can play ANY pattern of one scale and get ANY mode sound from it.
FORGET mode names for fret patterns! They lead you down blind alleys.

Originally Posted by broken.

Also not all of the B ionian sounds good over that chord progression why is that?

Ah-ha, well spotted. Not ALL of the scale sounds good over ALL of the chords. Most of the time everything is fine. But there is the odd note which will stand out strangely - or rather the occasional combination of note and chord.
Eg, over the F# chord, you'll probably find the B note a little awkward. Resolve down to A#, you'll be OK. (Old Jazz Law: "For any wrong note, the right one is only a half-step away." Question is: which way you move??? Hey, no one said it was easy.... )

Originally Posted by broken.

Im seeing the G#m so that perhaps means I"d have to use some sort of minor scale, perhaps natural minor.

Nope, you can sail on through with the B major scale (any old mode/pattern you like). The chord will make anything you play sound like G# aeolian (at least for as long as that chord lasts...). You might find the E note tricky, that's all. But again, resolve down a fret to D#, that's fine.

[kernix]

Dude - you're bugging out

B ionian and B dorian is not the same - how could they be? Yes B Ionian includes C# Dorian, D# Phrygian (Not Eb how can you have an Eb & E in B major - B major is a # key, you can't have #'s and b's!)

B Ionian is MAJOR
B Dorian is MINOR - it's from the A major scale

How can B Ionian and B Dorian have the same notes - that's impossible. How can B Ionian be B dorian if you don't use B as the root note for B dorian?

B major does not sound good over B-G#m-F#-E? The I, vi, V & IV of B major - if when you play B major over that chord progression and it doesn't sound good, then there is only one reason - what you think is B major IS NOT - and G# natural minor and B Ionian ARE THE SAME NOTES btw!


It's obvious you still don't know the notes in all the major scales - why are you trying to run before you can walk? Why are you trying to figure out an advanced topic such as modes?

[broken.]

Here's the deal:

Ionian is the same thing as the major (diatonic scale). Exactly the same, just different names.

Dorian is the same notes as the major scale, but starting on the 2nd scale tone.

Phrygian is the same notes as the major scale, but starting on the 3rd scale tone.

Lydian starts on the 4th major scale tone

Mixolydian starts on the 5th

Aeolian on the 6th

Locrian on the 7th.

Furthermore, The Natural Minor is the exact same scale as the Aeolian.

I understand this. I understand a lot more then I'm being given credit for, Kernix.. ha..I understand modes as a whole, I understand that in essence it is just one large Major scale, that the notes in the E major scale are E F# G# A B C# D# .. and that Ionian is E and that Dorian is F# etc. but that e each diffrent modal starting point contains the same notes as the E ionian. What I have learned modes as, is a pattern, i know this is wrong.. but this is where I am confused I know it as a pattern so when you tell me I can play in E ionian.. I immediatley assume the pattern:

E - 2 4 5

B - 2 4 5

G - 1 2 4

D - 1 2 4

A - 0 2 4

E - 0 2 4

SEe what I mean? I immediatley think that is ALLL i can use when I am playing in E ionian.. and I don't undersatnd why I can or can't use the Dorian which is just another pattern for me, starting on the F# I know all the patterns for each mode you can say.. but I don't understand why there is one HUGE major mode which consists of E F# G# A B C# D# all over the fretboard, and why its broken down into 7 modes when essentially it is just the major scale. And when should I use the Phrygian or Ionian.. all in respect to what I said above. That is what I don't understand. Its also hard for me to actually tell you what I don't understand because I cannot put it down in words, your giving me greatt information but and I am learning but I still have this ONE question I've been trying ot ask from the beginning and I'm asking it again now, hopefully this will solve what I am looking for. I am a VERY visual person, I learn by looking at the guitar and seeing it on the fretboard and this is where I think part of my problem is I cannot see it on the fretboard. Once I figure it out for myself I'll know it and see how it works. Yea sounds far out. Hope you can help.

[unclenuts]

Originally Posted by broken.

I understand this. I understand a lot more then I'm being given credit for, Kernix.. ha..I understand modes as a whole, I understand that in essence it is just one large Major scale, that the notes in the E major scale are E F# G# A B C# D# .. and that Ionian is E and that Dorian is F# etc. but that e each diffrent modal starting point contains the same notes as the E ionian. What I have learned modes as, is a pattern, i know this is wrong.. but this is where I am confused I know it as a pattern so when you tell me I can play in E ionian.. I immediatley assume the pattern:

E - 2 4 5

B - 2 4 5

G - 1 2 4

D - 1 2 4

A - 0 2 4

E - 0 2 4

SEe what I mean? I immediatley think that is ALLL i can use when I am playing in E ionian.. and I don't undersatnd why I can or can't use the Dorian which is just another pattern for me, starting on the F# I know all the patterns for each mode you can say.. but I don't understand why there is one HUGE major mode which consists of E F# G# A B C# D# all over the fretboard, and why its broken down into 7 modes when essentially it is just the major scale. And when should I use the Phrygian or Ionian.. all in respect to what I said above. That is what I don't understand. Its also hard for me to actually tell you what I don't understand because I cannot put it down in words, your giving me greatt information but and I am learning but I still have this ONE question I've been trying ot ask from the beginning and I'm asking it again now, hopefully this will solve what I am looking for. I am a VERY visual person, I learn by looking at the guitar and seeing it on the fretboard and this is where I think part of my problem is I cannot see it on the fretboard. Once I figure it out for myself I'll know it and see how it works. Yea sounds far out. Hope you can help.

I see where the gap in your knowledge is. You only associate "E major" with the scale pattern you know as "E major", and that is fine, but you also need to understand the more proper implication.

If someone says play an E major scale, are you just going to play that one 4 fret pattern you know? How many times do you think E F# G# A B C# D# occur across the fretboard?

Hopefully, this fretboard diagram can give a better idea, and clear up the confusion, but let me say first: You can the second pattern of E major "F# Dorian", but you have to realize, if you're playing over a tune in E major, it'll only SOUND like E major, so the modal association isn't really relevant.

Anyway...

This is probably what you play when someone says "E ionian" or "major"

 ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-x-|-x-|---|-x-|---|---|---|---|
 ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-x-|---|-x-|---|---|---|---|
 ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-x-|---|-x-|-x-|---|---|---|---|
 ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-x-|---|-x-|-x-|---|---|---|---|
 ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-x-|-x-|---|-x-|---|---|---|---|
 ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-x-|---|-x-|---|---|---|---|
    I      III      V      VII     IX          XII         XV      XVII

Right? Look at the notes now..

 ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-D#|-E-|---|-F#|---|---|---|---|
 ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-B-|---|-C#|---|---|---|---|
 ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-F#|---|-G#|-A-|---|---|---|---|
 ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-C#|---|-D#|-E-|---|---|---|---|
 ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-G#|-A-|---|-B-|---|---|---|---|
 ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-E-|---|-F#|---|---|---|---|
    I      III      V      VII     IX          XII         XV      XVII

Now, the reason you call it E ionian is because it starts on an E, right? Well, look at how many combinations of the same set of notes, with the same root we can get all across the fretboard.

 |E|---|-F#|---|-G#|-A-|---|-B-|---|-C#|---|-D#|-E-|---|-F#|---|---|---|---|
 |-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
 |-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
 |-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
 |-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
 |-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
    I      III      V      VII     IX          XII         XV      XVII

Across one string. That's still E major right? You start on E, yet you've covered from fret 1-12, see how this works? E major can occur many times all across the fretboard, so why localize it to one location, and only associate it with that pattern? If you have the notes E F# G# A B C# D#, you know that's E major, so you can play those notes anywhere on the fretboard, any pattern that contains the same notes, over a progression in E major, and it'll sound like E major.

Remember, the harmony strongly dictates the tonic or "home note". If it's E, it's E, and even if you start a phrase on use the "F# Dorian" pattern, it'll still sound like E major, try it!

Just to give a visual example of what I was saying...

 |-|---|---|---|---|---|---|-B-|---|-C#|---|-D#|-E-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
 |-|---|---|---|---|---|---|-F#|---|-G#|-A-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
 |-|---|---|---|---|---|-C#|---|-D#|-E-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
 |-|---|---|---|---|---|-G#|-A-|---|-B-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
 |-|---|---|---|---|---|---|-E-|---|-F#|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
 |-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
    I       III      V      VII     IX          XII          XV     VII

Now, what pattern does that remind you of? Probably "B mixolydian".

 |-|---|---|---|---|---|---|-B-|---|-C#|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
 |-|---|---|---|---|---|---|-F#|---|-G#|-A-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
 |-|---|---|---|---|---|-C#|---|-D#|-E-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
 |-|---|---|---|---|---|-G#|-A-|---|-B-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
 |-|---|---|---|---|---|-D#|-E-|---|-F#|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
 |-|---|---|---|---|---|---|-B-|---|-C#|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
    I       III      V      VII     IX          XII          XV     VII

Familiar, right?

The point I'm trying to make is...you don't have to stop associating shapes with modal names, but you have to realize that these are just POSITIONS of the E major scale, or any major scale, so of course you can use any of them in the key of E, because you're just playing the same notes in different regions of the fretboard.

[JonR]

Good post from unclenuts. Maybe I can offer an extra perspective. (Or maybe just repeat the same stuff again... )

Originally Posted by broken.

What I have learned modes as, is a pattern, i know this is wrong.. but this is where I am confused I know it as a pattern so when you tell me I can play in E ionian.. I immediatley assume the pattern:

E - 2 4 5

B - 2 4 5

G - 1 2 4

D - 1 2 4

A - 0 2 4

E - 0 2 4

See what I mean? I immediatley think that is ALLL i can use when I am playing in E ionian.. and I don't undersatnd why I can or can't use the Dorian which is just another pattern for me, starting on the F# I know all the patterns for each mode you can say.. but I don't understand why there is one HUGE major mode which consists of E F# G# A B C# D# all over the fretboard, and why its broken down into 7 modes when essentially it is just the major scale.

Firstly, let's talk about the meaning of some very simple words, which get bandied about without much thought. Like the word "in"...

What does it mean to say "playing in E ionian"? A piece of music starts off "in" a key. It is written in that key. (It may be written in a mode, or a mixture of a key and a mode, or more than one of either, but let's keep it simple for now...)
To play that piece of music, therefore, you need to be "in" the same key. This means (1) using the same set of notes, with (2) an eye (or rather ear!) on which note is the tonic - so you know where "home" is.
You can only be "in" one key or mode at a time. You can't be in 2 places at once! You can't be in a different mode than the music (it won't let you).
The music doesn't require you to choose a different mode for each chord. It requires you to use the SAME scale overall (for as long as the chords fit).

Now, a lot of confusions arise as soon as we talk about the guitar technique of actually producing a scale - finding those notes that you need to be "in" the right key.
As you have surmised (but don't seem to have quite grasped in full yet) is that a scale - every scale, every mode - covers the whole fretboard. In fact it goes beyond, above and below, in theory.

So - you ask - why does the fretboard get broken down into box patterns?

Simple - pure practicality. Guitarists like to be able to play in one position as much as possible. Could be any position, but the idea is that the hand (at least the thumb on the back of the neck) doesn't move. We get all the different notes just by moving our fingers from string to string, across the frets. In the most useful patterns, each finger has its own fret. This makes for the fastest and most efficient playing of scales (and therefore of melodies and improvisation).

The problems start when we have to think up NAMES for these 3-4 fret segments of the whole scale. People notice that if you think of the lowest note (on the 6th string) as the root, you can regard each pattern as a mode. WRONG! BAD MOVE! How many 1000s of hours of people's lives have been wasted by that seemingly clever, but actually stupid little idea?!
(As unclenuts says, you CAN associate fret patterns with mode names - as long as you realise the mode names have no musical meaning, no musical application. So, er, you might well think - why use mode names in the first place? Right... You might as well call them "Bill", "Bob", "Sue", etc....)

So how should we name patterns then? (You might well go on to ask... )

Call me old-fashioned, but my preference is for the traditional system of using fret numbers. So instead of saying "I'm playing a B phrygian pattern" (which might lead you to believe you are somehow "in" B phrygian mode), we'd say "I'm playing the G major scale 7th position". Meaning the index finger is on 7th fret - and the other fingers are picking out the remaining G major scale notes within reach (up to 10th fret).
This system doesn't actually name patterns as visual things at all. It assumes you know where to find the notes you want; that you know where to find the G major scale all over the neck.
You just happen to choose the 7th fret position because it suits what you want to play at that moment: IOW it offers a register which is not too high, not too low, and enables certain phrases to be played more easily (or with better sound) than they would be in some other position. If you want to wail away with intense high notes, then you would change to a higher position.

IOW, the position choice is NOT a modal one. Neither does it depend on what the chord is. It depends on how high or low you want your set of notes to be (the range within which you want to choose your notes), and on ease of playing particular phrases.


If you DO want a visual system (and why not?) I advise using chord shapes. I'm sure I've mentioned this before, so I'm not going to go over it all again. Essentially it's the CAGED system. So I might (in fact do) think of that "7th position G major" as a "C shape scale" - because I visualise an open position C chord shape within it; which is in turn because I know if I took the pattern down to open position, I would get a C major scale. This helps me identify the tonics in the scale. (Although, of course, I know all the notes anyway.)
However, I can also visualise any other chord shape in the key within the scale pattern.
Visualising chord shapes is not only a useful trick for the visually inclined - it outlines the important notes in the scale. Plus, a chord shape is an easier shape to remember than a scale pattern.
PLUS - there are only 5 major and 3 minor chord shapes to remember. (All 12 major and 12 minor chords come from those 8 shapes.)

Originally Posted by broken.

And when should I use the Phrygian or Ionian.. all in respect to what I said above. That is what I don't understand.

Makes no difference what the pattern is called. You can use it any time you want the notes it contains. The pattern itself is meaningless - it's the notes in it that matter.
I mean, eg, you could use an "F# dorian" pattern on any chord in the key of E major: E, F#m, G#m, A, B, B7, C#m, D#m7b5. And vice versa, if you happen to have an F#m chord, you can use any of the 7 modal patterns of E major on it.

As I said, the only purpose in having separate patterns in the first place is to enable playing in one place on the neck at a time - which is more comfortable and economic than whizzing up and down all the time.

Don't get imprisoned in box patterns! As soon as you can, link them up along the neck, see how they overlap - practise overlapping them. (A lot of my favourite phrases actually involve moving between 2 positions - but perhaps only on 2 or 3 strings.)

Also, as soon as you can, learn the notes on each fret. This will truly liberate you from patterns. I mean, you will still use them, but you will see them for what they are: practical bite-sized chunks of the ONE scale (the whole neck).

Here's the C major scale, from nut to 12th fret. It's really not too hard to learn this. Use bar chord shapes to help you.

C MAJOR SCALE
    0   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9  10  11  12 
 ||-E-|-F-|---|-G-|---|-A-|---|-B-|-C-|---|-D-|---|-E-|
 ||-B-|-C-|---|-D-|---|-E-|-F-|---|-G-|---|-A-|---|-B-|
 ||-G-|---|-A-|---|-B-|-C-|---|-D-|---|-E-|-F-|---|-G-|
 ||-D-|---|-E-|-F-|---|-G-|---|-A-|---|-B-|-C-|---|-D-|
 ||-A-|---|-B-|-C-|---|-D-|---|-E-|-F-|---|-G-|---|-A-|
 ||-E-|-F-|---|-G-|---|-A-|---|-B-|-C-|---|-D-|---|-E-|

And I've posted this before too, but here's the "CAGED" system chord shapes within that scale (each shape gives you a C major chord):

C MAJOR CHORDS
    ___________  _______  _________  _______  __________
   / C shape   \/A shape\/ G shape \/E shape\/ D shape  \        
    0   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9  10  11  12  13  14  15
 ||-E-|---|---|-G-|---|---|---|---|-C-|---|---|---|-E-|---|---|---|
 ||---|-C-|---|---|---|-E-|---|---|-G-|---|---|---|---|-C-|---|---|
 ||-G-|---|---|---|---|-C-|---|---|---|-E-|---|---|-G-|---|---|---|
 ||---|---|-E-|---|---|-G-|---|---|---|---|-C-|---|---|---|-E-|---|
 ||---|---|---|-C-|---|---|---|-E-|---|---|-G-|---|---|---|---|-C-|
 ||---|---|---|-G-|---|---|---|---|-C-|---|---|---|---|---|---|-G-|
                                                   \___C shape___/

The same 5 shapes will give 5 positions each for F major and G major chords too, by moving them. Eg, The F series starts with an "E" shape on 1st fret, "D" shape on 3rd fret, etc. The G series starts with an open G (of course), then an "E" shape at 3rd fret,etc. (The series always runs in the same order.)

Treat each of those shapes less as a playable chord shape than as a skeleton pattern that you can fill in with other scale notes. And each shape can of course be moved up or down to give a different key.

But the most important info is the notes on each fret. Once you know C major, other keys are easy, because sharps and flats are just the frets in between.
(Mind you this goes hand in hand with knowing what notes are in every chord too...)

[broken.]

Thank you for all your help Im starting to see diffrently now.

Across one string. That's still E major right? You start on E, yet you've covered from fret 1-12, see how this works? E major can occur many times all across the fretboard, so why localize it to one location, and only associate it with that pattern? If you have the notes E F# G# A B C# D#, you know that's E major, so you can play those notes anywhere on the fretboard, any pattern that contains the same notes, over a progression in E major, and it'll sound like E major.

Yes I think I understand this, you see I know all the modal patterns up to D# Locrian... but D# Locrain and basically anything that consists of the E F# G# A B C# D# .. modes (im not even sure if I should call them modes) I mean like E ionian, F# Dorian etc.. aren't they the same notes as E ionian? So what is the point of saying play in F# dorian because the notes in that scale pattern are teh same as in D# locrain.. isn't that right? These so called modal patterns within the E major scale that I have been taught are just ways to remember all the notes of the key across the fretboard.. so basically when Im playing in E major I can use any one of those patterns the Locrian one, the Mixolydian one.. is that right?

I think what I have to see now is why F# Dorian is Diffrent then E ionian.. what is diffrent in the way its notes are arranged? Because if its a whole new diffrent set of notes as the E ionian then i'd have to learn new scale shapes..lol..


Also, thanks JonR for that CAGED system, I already knew that system but I havent' thought of it that way, I'll surely use it from now on.. my only concern is that its in Major is it not? That would only apply if I'm playing in a Major key, say for example I'm playing in Am... ugh this is confusing.

[unclenuts]

Originally Posted by broken.

Thank you for all your help Im starting to see diffrently now.



Yes I think I understand this, you see I know all the modal patterns up to D# Locrian... but D# Locrain and basically anything that consists of the E F# G# A B C# D# .. modes (im not even sure if I should call them modes) I mean like E ionian, F# Dorian etc.. aren't they the same notes as E ionian? So what is the point of saying play in F# dorian because the notes in that scale pattern are teh same as in D# locrain.. isn't that right? These so called modal patterns within the E major scale that I have been taught are just ways to remember all the notes of the key across the fretboard.. so basically when Im playing in E major I can use any one of those patterns the Locrian one, the Mixolydian one.. is that right?

I think what I have to see now is why F# Dorian is Diffrent then E ionian.. what is diffrent in the way its notes are arranged? Because if its a whole new diffrent set of notes as the E ionian then i'd have to learn new scale shapes..lol..


Also, thanks JonR for that CAGED system, I already knew that system but I havent' thought of it that way, I'll surely use it from now on.. my only concern is that its in Major is it not? That would only apply if I'm playing in a Major key, say for example I'm playing in Am... ugh this is confusing.

Yes, you can use any of those patterns, but you have to realize the modal association doesn't matter in a major key, because it's major

Why is F# dorian different from E major? Because F# is the final, or the "tonic". This is why you get confused you don't fully understand the difference between modal music, and key based music.

Play over this chord progression: E-A-B7-E

And play any of the "modes" of E major. YOu always want to end on E right? It sounds correct.

Play over this chord progression: [F#m7-B7]

With F# dorian, same patterns as in E major right? But the notes draw to the F#. F# is home. That's "dorian".

[broken.]

Oh wait as I sit here playing my guitar I think I might have figured something out. Don't know yet.. I'll ask it.. ha.

So back when you told me that Am is the Relative to C, the A is the sixth note in the scale so that also means that it is the natural minor so when I am playing in Am..(same notes as C major, just re arranged diffrent) this means that I should use the Aeolian mode .. ? Is this true... and if thats the case then using the second key in C , D .. that means I should use the Dorian mode... maybe a bit far fetched.

[lefthooker]

What Broken has typed out regarding the major scale is there a minor equivelant? Also this may seem stupid but how do you get an 11th and 13th chord structure. Originally I thought it was where the notes where going up an octave in the scale but I thik im on another planet. I think people who can understand music theory are clever and people who can explain it are just pure genius!!!

[broken.]

Oh my God I cant believe this.. I just took a look with guitar pro at the diffrence between C ionian and C dorian.. and they have diffrent notes.. I can't believe I didnt see this earlier this might actualyl solve a lot of my problems.. here I was sitting here thinking C Ionian and C dorian are the same thing..but do you see where my problem was its because I thought Modal patterns were modes.. aHH now I get what you've been telling me.. modal patterns are just patterns to help me see every note in the E ionian or E phrygian..lol.. wow..

Sorry for the three posts.