Still a bit confused..haha :)

[unclenuts]

Originally Posted by broken.

Sorry Im not seeing what you are saying. I was orginally wondernig what scale/mode I would use over a Cm progression..? Would it still be Eb major?

You were talking about the diatonic chords in a minor key- so I added onto that.

If you're playing over a C minor progression, play the C minor scale. Makes sense, right? It's not longer "Eb major", if you're playing over something in Cm, because it now sounds like C minor, so it's C minor.

Use the C minor scale.

Here it is:

 ||-F-|---|-G-|-Ab|---|-Bb|---|-C-|---|-D-|-Eb|---|-F-|---|-G-|-Ab|---|-Bb|
 ||-C-|---|-D-|-Eb|---|-F-|---|-G-|-Ab|---|-Bb|---|-C-|---|-D-|-Eb|---|---|
 ||-Ab|---|-Bb|---|-C-|---|-D-|-Eb|---|-F-|---|-G-|-Ab|---|-Bb|---|-C-|---|
 ||-Eb|---|-F-|---|-G-|-Ab|---|-Bb|---|-C-|---|-D-|-Eb|---|-F-|---|-G-|---|
 ||-Bb|---|-C-|---|-D-|-Eb|---|-F-|---|-G-|-Ab|---|-Bb|---|-C-|---|-D-|-Eb|
 ||-F-|---|-G-|-Ab|---|-Bb|---|-C-|---|-D-|-Eb|---|-F-|---|-G-|-Ab|---|-Bb|
    I      III      V      VII     IX          XII  

Theres the whole fretboard- endless possibilities in C minor, of course you can you use chromatics, and the harmonic minor over the V, whatever.

I bolded the minor shape you're probably familiar with for reference

[JonR]

Originally Posted by broken.

Sorry Im not seeing what you are saying. I was orginally wondernig what scale/mode I would use over a Cm progression..? Would it still be Eb major?

Yes. Forget about modes (I get the feeling I said that before somewhere... ).
Eb major and C (natural) minor scales are identical. The different names arise from different application. So if you're in C minor (as you are) you can call it "C natural minor scale". It should sound as if C is home, not Eb.

However, minor keys are a bit more complicated than major keys (as uncle nuts started to explain). Bear in mind they don't have to be - you can stick with the natural minor scale and those chords you listed if you want.
But traditionally, people felt that the change from V-I wasn't strong enough.
If you play Gm-Cm, it's a fairly weak resolution. Nothing wrong with it if you like the sound. But classically they preferred to raise the Bb note to B when resolving to Cm - which meant making the Gm into a G (or G7).
This means harmonic minor (as you said) - but the important thing is that it only happens on that chord (V) at that point (resolving to I). And it's very rare to actually use the harmonic minor scale for melodies or improvisation - it's a mere footnote in jazz theory.
But you do get an important chord from it: the dim7 on vii. In C harmonic minor, that's Bdim7 (B-D-F-Ab). Dim7s are fundamental jazz chords, with lots of uses (not just in minor keys).

But once you start messing with the natural minor scale, you can't stop just with raising the 7th. For tunes to work better when rising to the tonic, you need to raise the 6th as well - giving you the melodic minor scale.
C melodic minor = C D Eb F G A B C
The melodic minor scale is NOT generally used to make chords from - except the tonic chord, which could be Cm(maj7), Cm6 or Cm6/9.

This chart shows all the possible chords commonly used in the key of C minor:

                   i       ii     III     IV     V     VI     VII     vii
 NATURAL MINOR     Cm     Bm7b5   Eb      Dm    (Gm)   Ab      Bb      -   
HARMONIC MINOR     Cm       "    (Eb+)    "    G7(b9)   "       -    Bdim7
 MELODIC MINOR   Cm(maj7)  (Bm)    "    (D(7))  (G9) (Am7b5)    -   (Bm7b5)

Chords in bold are common, chords in brackets possible but rare.
In jazz, Bb would be a rare choice. In rock it's rare to find Bm7b5 or Bdim7.

If you actually prefer the sound of Gm as v, and don't want to use G or G7 (or Bdim7), then you could call the tonality "C aeolian mode", rather than "C minor key".

Examples of Aeolian mode songs in rock (as opposed to minor key) are REM's "Losing My Religion" (A aeolian) and Nirvana's "Smells Like Teen Spirit" (F aeolian).

Even if you use all those fancy minor key chords, you would still use the C natural minor scale (C aeolian if you insist ) for improvisation most of the time. The easiest thing when you get to the G7 chord is just to bend the Bb up to B. (Jazz folk introduce all kinds of weird scales at that point, but let's not go there right now... )

[Eclectifish]

Yeah, what Jon said.

I was being cryptic because I wanted you to ask more questions . Sometimes the right question is as important as the right answer.

Then again, Jon, as always, gave the right answer. Please read carefully. Then, ask more questions.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by Eclectifish

Yeah, what Jon said.

I was being cryptic because I wanted you to ask more questions . Sometimes the right question is as important as the right answer.

I suspected that was your strategy. However, sometimes them fish don't take that fancy bait. My method of fishing is to empty the lake and wade in with a big club...

[broken.]

Thanks for all your help so far. I haven't asked a few questions lately and I thought I'd be back to take on some diffrent questions without starting a new thread.

Lately I've been learning about Parallel scales, to my understanding parallel scales are started on the same tonic as the note just a diffrent pattern for example. The parallel of C major scale would be C natural minor scale ( or C minor, which is the correct one to say? Is it assumed that C minor is C natural minor?).

Now my question is, does this relate in any way to modes. Also, when would using a parallel scale be useful in improvising or would it be more useful for creating small riffs and bridging gaps? I'm assuming that it would have to have some sort of minor progression or chord in what you are playing for it to be of any use. I am not sure though.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by broken.

Thanks for all your help so far. I haven't asked a few questions lately and I thought I'd be back to take on some diffrent questions without starting a new thread.

Lately I've been learning about Parallel scales, to my understanding parallel scales are started on the same tonic as the note just a diffrent pattern for example. The parallel of C major scale would be C natural minor scale ( or C minor, which is the correct one to say? Is it assumed that C minor is C natural minor?).

Now my question is, does this relate in any way to modes. Also, when would using a parallel scale be useful in improvising or would it be more useful for creating small riffs and bridging gaps? I'm assuming that it would have to have some sort of minor progression or chord in what you are playing for it to be of any use. I am not sure though.

Your understanding is correct: Parallel means same tonic, and it IS related to modes. But - as often with modes - this isn't about improvisation as much as it is about composition.
If you start with a major scale/key (and all the chords that gives you), borrowing from other parallel scales will give you a lot more chord options - all of them darkening the overall sound (apart from parallel lydian, which is not used much in this way - but see below!).
As well as parallel minor (natural minor), you could consider mixolydian and dorian (which don't go as far as natural minor), and phrygian.
Here's a chart of the most useful C modes with all the relevant chords available. Common borrowings are in bold:

             I    II     III     IV     V     VI     VII
     MAJOR   C    Dm     Em      F      G     Am     Bdim
MIXOLYDIAN   C    Dm     Edim    F      Gm    Am     Bb
    DORIAN   Cm   Dm     Eb      F      Gm    Adim   Bb       
   AEOLIAN   Cm   Ddim   Eb      Fm     Gm    Ab     Bb
  PHRYGIAN   Cm   Db     Eb      Fm     Gdim  Ab     Bbm         

In rock songs in the key of C, you'll find a bVII chord (Bb) is very common (you will NEVER find a Bdim... Let me know if you do...). The bIII and bVI (Eb, Ab) offer some other "heavy" sounds. And the IVm (Fm) adds an air of mystery.
Notice that the Aeolian (natural minor) takes care of all these borrowings, so we speak of "borrowing from the parallel minor" to explain all of them - even if dorian or mixolydian might be enough.

As I say, none of this is to with improvisation. If you see a song with these borrowed chords, it doesn't mean you should suddenly switch to what you think the borrowed scales is. You should obviously include the chromatic chord tones (eg a Bb note for a Bb chord), but this may only mean slipping into the minor pent (if you're not already using it!). And in some songs in C, the use of an Fm chord might indicate the F melodic minor scale (common in jazz) - or even C harmonic major (extremely rare anywhere)!
IOW there are no hard and fast rules here concerning improvisation. It always depends on context. The "parallel borrowing" idea is a way of analysing and understanding existing compositions, rather than improvising on them.

NB: for the process to be considered "borrowing", the tonic has to remain major. If you switch to a Cm tonic, you have changed to the parallel minor key. Remember the C minor key already borrows the V (G) from the major - and if you had an F (major) as IV, it would only sound like dorian mode, it wouldn't sound like a "major key with a borrowed I" .


LYDIAN MODE is used in jazz to improvise on a tonic major chord. Eg, in key of C, a jazz soloist might use the G major scale - which is just raising the 4th of the C scale. This is because the #4 works better as a chord extension (#11), or as a held note, than the perfect 4 does. The P4 is a tension note, which has to be resolved. The #4 isn't. This is especially true for maj7 chords.
This is perhaps the only occasion in conventional jazz where a parallel mode (other than the key scale) is applied to a chord.

[broken.]

Its time to revive this thread!
This thread is going to be dedicated to helping understand guitar, ha I know it!

So its been a while, I've doing some learning found some great lessons discovered some great things but now I just want to make sure I understand modes as a whole because again I am beginning to ask myself questions.

Modes as I understand them:

There are seven diffrent modes, they are, in order, The Ionian also refered to as the Major scale, Dorian, Phrygian (which are both minor modes, this has to do with the Maj - min - min - maj - maj etc... that occurs in a major key, at least that is what I assumed), after Phrygian there is Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, and Locrian.

These are the seven modes. NOW within each one of these modes there are modal patterns, and this to what I have been taught in my 2 months of guitar lessons at a local guitar store are also referred to as "modes", I guess he was going to tell me later that they were just modal patterns, clever patterns to give you all the notes in a particular scale. So for example E major consists of these seven modal patterns that keep on going.

So because all these modal patterns hold all the same notes just a diffrent way of doing them when you play in a certain key all these notes are available to you more or less. Some won't sound as good because of the chord sequence you are playing, and what not.

Now how to know when to use a certain mode? This was the question I've always wanted to know, I thought I was limited to one modal pattern when it was said I can play in E Aeolian, I thought it was the modal pattern on the sixth fret... and thats it. But now I understand that you can use all the notes on the fretboard in every pattern, but the only reason that theycall it E Aeolian is that you are starting on the sixth degree, and that E is your tonic, or your tonal centre?

Is this all correct?

Thats my understand of modes, maybe its a bit limited .. but I am a bit tired and I might have forgotten some things.

BUT now a question that troubles me is..that these are the modes of the Major scale .. thought my muscianship has increased 10 times fold by knowing the above information.. im still not confident I have it all under my sleeve I feel like if I was thrown into a situation where I have to improvise I would miserably fail.. and beacuse I just got invited to play in a band that has a show March2nd I am.. a bit.. under pressure. So lets take one more shot at it. If you'd all be so willing.


And JonR the statement above sort of makes uneasy.. you said that modes aren't that useful for improvisation?

[JonR]

Sorry broken, but IMO you're still on the wrong kick. I mean I think you're getting closer, but you're still starting from modes, which is the wrong place to start.
(I mean, historically it all began with modes, but then they only had four, and they only had 7 notes in all, no sharps or flats, no keys. Let's not go there...)

In modern music, we start from KEYS, from MAJOR SCALES in particular. FORGET MODES! (I know I've said that before, but no one seems to take any notice... )

Your understanding so far is not wrong - your facts are all correct - it's just irrelevant, and not a lot of use. You're not seeing the wood for the trees, because you're (still) hacking around in the wrong part of the jungle. Put down that machete and come out into the clearing for a second...

Here's where we begin:

(1) A major scale is 7 notes with a particular step pattern: W-W-H-W-W-W-H. (12 half-steps make an octave.)

(2) The 7 natural notes (A B C D E F G, white notes of the piano) fall into this pattern if you start on C. C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C makes the C major scale.

(3) We get 12 different major scales depending on which of the 12 half-steps of the octave we start on. They all have different mixtures of sharp or flat variations of the 7 notes.

(4) The major KEYS are based on the fact that the root note of a major scale SOUNDS like a tonal centre. The "do-re-mi..." series only sounds finished if you stop on "do" (in either direction).
So we have 12 major keys:
C, Db/C#, D, Eb, E, F, G#/Gb, G, Ab, A, Bb, B/Cb.

(5) We make MINOR KEYS by treating the 6th note of a major scale as the root. This is known as the "relative minor".
To enhance the sense of the minor vi chord as a tonic, we convert the iii chord to a major, so it becomes the V of the minor i.
E.g., the key of A minor is derived from C major, but we change the Em chord to E major, to make Am sound more like a tonic chord.
This is where the "harmonic minor" scale comes in, as we raise the 7th degree of the scale - and also melodic minor, when we raise the 6th as well.
Just as there are 12 major keys, there are 12 minor keys.
Am, Bb/A#m, Bm, Cm, C#m, Dm, D#/Ebm, Em, Fm, F#m, Gm, G#/Abm.


The relevance of MODES

Before keys were developed, music was written in modes. Certain practices of modal composition, combined with the developing art of harmony, led to two particular modes being selected as the two new prime tonalities: IONIAN (major key) and AEOLIAN (minor key). As mentioned above, Aeolian mode (the "natural minor" scale) required certain standard alterations in order to function as a fully-fledged key.

Each major key scale can - in theory - be organised into 7 modes, by treating each step as a tonal centre.
Mode I (Ionian) and mode VI (aeolian) are already "spoken for", as the relative major and minor keys.
Four of the others reflect the 4 medieval "authentic" modes: DORIAN, PHRYGIAN, LYDIAN and MIXOLYDIAN. (The 5th, LOCRIAN, is not a practical usable scale for composition.)
The crucial thing to remember here is that these modes have no practical musical relevance to the "parent" (or "relative") major key.

(It's also worth remembering that nothing I've said so far has any special relationship to GUITAR. All the above could be applied to, or demonstrated on, any instrument. We are not - YET! - talking about "patterns".)

When we are playing music that is written in a major or minor key, it makes no sense to talk about "using modes", or "applying modes". Keys do not contain modes in that sense.
A key is a mode itself.
A mode (other than Ionian) is another kind of tonality, resembling a key but with important differences.

GUITAR FRET PATTERNS

The way the guitar is designed means that scales are played across the neck, string to string, usually 3 notes per string in one position.
The specific tuning system gives different patterns for any one major scale, depending on where on the neck you play it.
Some people (I restrain myself from using the word IDIOTS, or something worse...) thought it would be a cool idea to give these different patterns mode names, treating the lowest note of the pattern as a root note.
This idea is idiotic because (a) there is no reason why the lowest note of the pattern should be a root note (normally in fact it ISN'T), and (b) modes are something else entirely (as we try to explain all the time).

There is an unfortunate underlying logic here, which causes the entanglement. The old medieval modal system was indeed based on treating different notes of the same scale as alternative roots.
Lydian mode was F G A B C D E F
Dorian mode was D E F G A B C D
etc.
So the idea arose that any scale (in modern music) could be broken down into as many modes as it had notes - but unfortunately without any clear understanding of what it meant to do that, or why you would want to do that anyway.

In short - and I know I've said this countless times before (and I don't know why I don't tire of it! - much ) is that MODES ARE NOTHING TO DO WITH FRET PATTERNS. You don't "apply" modes. You don't need to know what mode to "use" at any time. You should NOT learn mode names for guitar fret patterns.
If you want to name the different patterns, think of some other system. Ideally, learn all the NOTES on the neck, then just give positional names to the patterns. (Eg "G major 7th position" for a G major pattern on 7th fret. This will be the same pattern as, eg, "F major 5th position".) This is the tried and tested traditional system.

IF and WHEN you understand what keys are all about - and that the vast majority of western music is written in keys (even tho many of the rules are bent quite a lot in modern music) - THEN it MIGHT help to use modal terminology in some instances when talking about chords in keys, and how scales interact with chords. But even when it does help in talking (or writing) about music, it does NOT necessarily help when PLAYING music.

Simply put, when you have to improvise on a tune, you have ONE scale, throughout - the scale of the key. (If the song changes key in the middle, you will have TWO...) You can find the notes you need anywhere on the neck. Your choice of pattern or position is not dependent on the chords, but on what kind of phrase you want to play.
You should know as many possible shapes for all the chords as you can, so you have arpeggio "templates" in various places to begin soloing from. (How the scale relates to the chords is important, tho not absolutely essential.))
Thinking about the mode names of the patterns will do you no good whatsoever. Knowing the patterns is good - but forget the names. Learn notes and chord arpeggios instead.


What modes are about is the way a set of 7 notes relates (acoustically, sound-wise) to a keynote or tonal centre.
While each chord does have its own tonal centre ("root") - and therefore a theoretical modal identity when associated with a particular scale - this identity is over-ridden when the chord is used in a key-based chord progression. IOW, the chord's modal identity is a (more or less) useless piece of knowledge.
Thinking about modes within a key-based progression is like being a kid on a bus with a toy steering-wheel. He can pretend to be driving and turning corners - but the bus keeps on going the same way. The bus route is the chord progression (and the key is the destination) - you don't change it by thinking about all the side roads you pass on the way. You can turn and look out the side window - but that doesn't make the bus go sideways! (Sorry if this is a slightly confused metaphor...)
You want to go down that interesting-looking lydian side street (when the bus gets to stop #4)? Then you have to get off the bus...

[unclenuts]

So, JonR, if I'm understanding you right..

I can play G mixolydian over the G in C major, for a cooler different sound, and then when the F rolls around I play F lydian, and I get another sound. Right?

Then I just play C ionian over the C?

I think I'm getting it! :rotf:

Do you hate "modes" yet?

[kernix]

Uncle - maybe Jon would disagree, but I don't think so - if yoy have a G chord followed by an F chord followed by a C chord, it's ridiculous thinking G mixo into F lydian into C ionian - that's all the same scale - C major - but what you want to do is outline a G chord then an F chord then a C chord

[unclenuts]

Originally Posted by kernix

Uncle - maybe Jon would disagree, but I don't think so - if yoy have a G chord followed by an F chord followed by a C chord, it's ridiculous thinking G mixo into F lydian into C ionian - that's all the same scale - C major - but what you want to do is outline a G chord then an F chord then a C chord

I know, I was kidding. I probably hate these mode topics more than JonR, so I was just injecting some comic relief.

[kernix]

oh - got it - never mind

[broken.]

Alright I actually understood all of that JonR, ha.. well that helps tonnes. So then these modes that I have learned.. should they just be used as templates? Templates as in these "patterns" where you have all the notes you need.

I've just one more thing on modes to ask, I think this wil pretty much round it all up. Or actually two questions. When someone tells you to play C Aeolian.. does that mean starting on the sixth fret on the A? Or does that mean starting on the first fret in the Aeolian pattern?

And,

Lydian mode was F G A B C D E F
Dorian mode was D E F G A B C D

If that is the case, then when I am playing a chord progression and using Dmaj, Em, Gmaj, Bm for example.. you refered to this as Dorian mode ( D E F G A B C D ) I don't understand if that is dorian mode can I play over that progression in dorian..

Wow, I feel a bit like I'm back where I started though I've gotten some things cleared up and steadily making progress.

[unclenuts]

Originally Posted by broken.

Alright I actually understood all of that JonR, ha.. well that helps tonnes. So then these modes that I have learned.. should they just be used as templates? Templates as in these "patterns" where you have all the notes you need.

I've just one more thing on modes to ask, I think this wil pretty much round it all up. Or actually two questions. When someone tells you to play C Aeolian.. does that mean starting on the sixth fret on the A? Or does that mean starting on the first fret in the Aeolian pattern?

And,

Lydian mode was F G A B C D E F
Dorian mode was D E F G A B C D

If that is the case, then when I am playing a chord progression and using Dmaj, Em, Gmaj, Bm for example.. you refered to this as Dorian mode ( D E F G A B C D ) I don't understand if that is dorian mode can I play over that progression in dorian..

Wow, I feel a bit like I'm back where I started though I've gotten some things cleared up and steadily making progress.

When someone says play C aeolian they mean play C aeolian, which contains the notes: C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb, you can play it in a variety of locations on the freboard.

Modes don't use chord progressions- that is an issue for a later day- for now just don't associate chords with modes, infact, forget about modes.

[broken.]

I think what I need to see is the shape for each mode. Like each mode as in Aeolian Lydian etc.. because I think I might those wrong.