How to construct a chord?

[KeithB]

It seems that I knew this at one time, but I don't remember.
Say I want a G chord at the 10th fret.
How do I go about putting one together?
Thanks

[CDguitar]

The first step would be to understand where the notes come from.

The chord you seek is build from 3rds.

Here's a simple way to organise those chord tones.

G major scale
G A B C D E F# G

the extended G major scale
G A B C D E F# G A B C D E
G...B....D....F#....A....C...E = this is the order of 3rds

G B D F# A C E is the scale in an order of 3rds.

create the chords in the key of G
G = GBD, Am = ACE, Bm = BDF#, C = CEG

D = DF#A, Em = EGB, F#dim = F#AC >> G

All the chords in the key of G are made from that order of 3rds.


As for where and how to locate G at the 10th fret. I'll leave that
for some other person to respond to. I gotta go to school. (college)

Hope that gives you an important piece of the picture.

[woody]

I'm sure there are lots of ways approaching this. Here's how one might approach it from a CAGED point of view. CAGED observes (among other things) that for these five major "cowboy chords":

Chords with a root on the 6th string: G and E
Chords with a root on the 5th string: C and A
Chords with a root on the 4th string: E and D
Chords with a root on the 3rd string: A and G
Chords with a root at the 2nd string: C and D

Now look for the desired root. Where the G notes on the fretboard, specifically where is the closest one to my desired position?

6th string: G is on the 3rd fret.
5th string: G is on the 10th fret.
4th string: G is on the 5th fret.
3rd string: G is on the 0 or 12 fret.
2nd string: G is on the 8th fret.

Minor question might be: Just how important is it to have a G in the bass of this chord? We may have to compromise that with moving away from our desired fret.

We hit the lottery jackpot with G right there on fret 10 of the 5th string. We can make either an A-shaped or a C-shaped chord there.

A-shaped = x 10 12 12 12 10
C-shaped = x 10 9 7 8 7

Play the A-shape as a barre, the C-shape either as a barre or just 4 fingers and skip the high note.

Hopefully, CAGED-wise, we get to where all this happens in our puny brains in a split second; we just "see" the G at fret 10 of string 5, and the C and A shape patterns just "appear" around it ...

[KeithB]

Hey thanks,
Yeah, the root is the G on the 5th string, 10th fret. I'm flexible... could go up or down a fret without much trouble.
I'll give this a shot when I get home tonight.
Well, after trick-or-treating anyway

[Budda]

Lots of good advice in this thread. Hopefully, I can add to the discussion.

Using the 5 Forms from the CAGED concept, you can see how easy it is to visualize different Chords all along the Fretboard. So, by getting really familiar with these 5 "Parent" Forms, you can also manipulate the 5 Forms to produce thousands of more variations.

Here's how I suggest getting to know the 5 Forms.
Learn to recite all the Root, 3rd., and 5ths. of each of the 5 Forms, starting from the Low E String, and going all the way up to the High E String.

FORMS:

C = 3(E) R(C) 3(E) 5(G) R(C) 3(E)

A = 5(E) R(A) 5(E) R(A) 3(C#) 5(E)

G = R 3 5 R 3 R

E = R 5 R 3 5 R

D = X 5 R 5 R 3

* On the "D Form", the Low E String doesn't contain and actual "Triad" Note. So, I just put an X there, to skip this String on this particular Form.

* On the "G Form", if you prefer the G fingering that includes the B String, 3rd. Fret, then here's the Interval Spelling:

R 3 5 R 5 R

Once you can just reel these spellings off, you will be much freer in quickly accessing the structure of most any Chord you come across.

Hope this helps.

[texastito]

Keithb - here's a site that helps me sometimes. Of course, it simply lets you pick a chord name, and then you can find out where it happens all of the fretboard - pretty cool little tool.

http://www.michael-hogg.co.uk/gce.php

But this doesn't help if you're wanting to "learn" how to construct a chord...well, it can, but....

[CDguitar]

Here is a "reaching" way to play chords, I haven't reahed for a while.

The diminished chord is called a symetrical chord because it evenly
inverts up the neck in segments of 3 frets each, making for 4 diminished chords that span an octave.
Edim7...Gdim7..Bbdim7.C#dim7 - each chord shares all these names
|---3-----6-----9-----12-|
|---2-----5-----8-----11-|
|---3-----6-----9-----12-|
|---2-----5-----8-----11-|
|-------------------------|
|-------------------------|
these chords all have the same four notes E Bb Db G


trick or treat
Lower any note and make a dominant 7th chord

....Eb7....Eb7...Eb7....Eb7
|---3-----6-----9-----11-|-|
|---2-----4-----8-----11-|-|
|---3-----6-----8-----12-|-|
|---1-----5-----8-----11-|-|
|-------------------------|-|
|-------------------------|-|

This can also produce four F#7, A7 and C7 each, just like the Eb7.


This concept also works with the augmented triad of Root 3 #5
The augmented triad divides the fretboard into three equal segments
and also inverts up the neck.

trick or treat
Raise any note in the triad and create a minor chord
Lower any note in the triad and create a major chord

Then transfer all this to as many ways as you know to play diminished
and augmented chords.

It ain't the CAGED system for sure, but it organizes the neck in terms of potential harmonic functions, something the CAGED chords do not do.

I always say, "if it's good enough for Pat Martino, then ..well,,"

[Budda]

KeithB,

Did any of the posts help? Too much (or, not enough) info?

[KeithB]

Originally Posted by Budda

KeithB,

Did any of the posts help? Too much (or, not enough) info?

As of yet, I haven't had a chance to try it out.
I'm thinking about the entry above for the CAGED system.
The A and E in CAGED... are these the A and E-form barre chords? Is it the same idea for the rest of the letters (CGD) - you use the same form as those basic chords, move them up the fretboard to create other chords ?? If so, I think I know how to go about this.
Thanks for asking!

[Budda]

Yeah, just move the "Forms" up the neck.

There are the 5 Basic Forms. And they always follow the exact pattern, of C A G E D

Play a basic C Chord.

The next C Chord will be an "A Form", barred at the 3rd. Fret.

The next C Chord will be a "G Form", barred at the 5th. Fret.

The next C Chord will be an "E Form", barred at the 8th. Fret.

The next C Chord will be a "D Form", barred at the 10th. Fret.

The next C Chord will be a "C Form", barred at the 12th. Fret. And this is where the whole CAGED Pattern starts over. For a C Chord.

If you started with an Open G Chord, the next G Chord would be an "E Form", barred at the 3rd. Fret. The following G Chords would be D, C, A, and G Forms, respectively.

All Major Chords follow this same Pattern. Just starting on whichever Form you want.


Does this help?

And yes, I'd suggest learning all of the basic Major Chords first. Then, it's a simple process to "Transform" the 5 Forms to Minor, Suspended, 7th., Extended, etc. Chords.

All of this will shave a few YEARS off of your learning curve. Very useful stuff......

[woody]

Or, alternatively, just move the C shape up the neck, much like you already do the A and E. Barre at fret 2 and make a C shape to form the D. It's a little of a spread down at the nut, easier to make the G up barred at the 7. You can also just use four fingers on the middle four strings and not play the 1 and 6.

----0----2----4----5----7---------------------------------------------------
----1----3----5----6----8---------------------------------------------------
----0----2----4----5----7---------------------------------------------------
----2----4----6----7----9---------------------------------------------------
----3----5----7----8----10--------------------------------------------------
----0----2----4----5----7---------------------------------------------------
    C    D    E    F    G    etc

I can form the D and G shaped barres too, but as a practical matter, for me, it takes too long to get my fingers down in time. Makes a good stretching exercise, though!

They don't have to be used exclusively as chords, it's also useful just for partial chords or arpeggios. The D shape especially makes a nice little quick&dirty partial / chord inversion on the top 3 strings, just make the little arrow with the point on the desired root. When I see an Eb in the middle of some open chords I'm reading, for example, rather than panic I just go xxx343 and drive on. Maybe look it up / think it through the next day

[woody]

Originally Posted by CDguitar

trick or treat
Lower any note [of a diminished chord] and make a dominant 7th chord

....Eb7....Eb7...Eb7....Eb7
|---3-----6-----9-----11-|-|
|---2-----4-----8-----11-|-|
|---3-----6-----8-----12-|-|
|---1-----5-----8-----11-|-|
|-------------------------|-|
|-------------------------|-|

This can also produce four F#7, A7 and C7 each, just like the Eb7.

Thanks for the treats, CD! I've been especially enjoying this particular observation today, making dominants from diminished chords. It's opening some fresh insight into the neck anatomy. Those chord scales the other day were interesting too. I guess I'll use those eggs for breakfast tomorrow.

[CDguitar]

Originally Posted by woody

Thanks for the treats, CD! I've been especially enjoying this particular observation today, making dominants from diminished chords. It's opening some fresh insight into the neck anatomy. Those chord scales the other day were interesting too. I guess I'll use those eggs for breakfast tomorrow.

The obvious use of this concept is as a V chord in a V to I progression.

Say you're playing an Em7 A7 Dmaj7 progression. Any of the four diminished chords Edim7, Gdim7, Bbdim7, or C#dim7 will function as the A7 in the progression. They all function as an A7b9 or altered chord.

The rule is, you can use altered tension on a V chord when moving V to I.

So diminished 7th chords can become 7th chords and altered 7th chords can be diminished 7th chords. It works both ways. A+B = B+A

[woody]

Originally Posted by CDguitar

Say you're playing an Em7 A7 Dmaj7 progression. Any of the four diminished chords Edim7, Gdim7, Bbdim7, or C#dim7 will function as the A7 in the progression. They all function as an A7b9 or altered chord.

So if I understand this correctly, any of those four diminished chords (inversions of the same chord), in appropriate context, can function as C7, Eb7, and Gb7 as well as A7. Or the altered b9 of any of those four dominants.

Is it appropriate to think of a diminished chord as equivalent to a "rootless b9" ? (or four of them)

At some point I want to draw you guys out on altered chords --- it seems like there are at least four different ways to alter a chord between raising/lowering the 5th and 9th, yet I often read about it as "the" altered chord as if there's only one form ... corn-fusing.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by woody

So if I understand this correctly, any of those four diminished chords (inversions of the same chord), in appropriate context, can function as C7, Eb7, and Gb7 as well as A7. Or the altered b9 of any of those four dominants.

Yes.

Originally Posted by woody

Is it appropriate to think of a diminished chord as equivalent to a "rootless b9" ? (or four of them)

Yes.
Remember this is diminished 7th chords, which are different from half-diminished (m7b5).
The dim7 comes from the VII step of harmonic minor, that's the link with 7b9s:

VII chord in A harmonic minor = G#-B-D-F = G#dim7
V chord in A harmonic minor = E-G#-B-D-F = E7b9

If we spell the other inversions of G#dim7 with correct enharmonics, we get:
Bdim7 = B-D-F-Ab = VII of C minor
Ddim7 = D-F-Ab-Cb = VII of Eb minor
Fdim7 = F-Ab-Cb-Ebb = VII of Gb minor
(or E#dim7 = E#-G#-B-D, VII of F# minor)

Of course, the fact that these all sound the same means any one can pass for any of the others, as CD explained - enabling 4-way modulation options.

It doesn't quite follow, tho, that the 7b9 equivalents (E7b9, G7b9, Bb7b9, C#7b9) are equally interchangeable - although we can have fun trying to make them work like that...

Originally Posted by woody

At some point I want to draw you guys out on altered chords --- it seems like there are at least four different ways to alter a chord between raising/lowering the 5th and 9th, yet I often read about it as "the" altered chord as if there's only one form ... corn-fusing.

Just in case "at some point" could mean "now"...

(If not, copy/paste and save for later... )

There's only one scale, and the different forms of the chord are interchangeable. When you see the symbol "7alt" you can choose b5 or #5, and b9 or #9.

Much the same thinking (chord as flexible representation of scale) applies to some other jazz chords.
Eg, "maj7#11" is a lydian chord, and could have 9th and 13th added if you like. Likewise "7#11" (lydian dominant) could also have 9 and/or 13 added to taste.
"7sus" implies a perfect 4th, and could also have 9 or 13.
Obviously if any of these actually include the figure "9" or "13", then you should include them (but 9 is always optional in a 13 chord).


Anyway, the altered dom7 chord is generally used as a V in a minor key.
Eg, in A minor, E7alt = E-G#-D (1-3-b7), plus A#/Bb or C(B#), and F or G(F##).
The idea is twofold:

(a) all of any of these notes can be added as chord extensions without making awkward clashes. This can't be said of the V mode of the diatonic minor scale (harmonic or melodic), which contains a P4 and b6. (The altered scale also contains a b6/#5, but it's not a problem because there is no P5 to clash with it.)

(b) most of the notes make neat half-step resolutions on to chord tones on the following (tonic) chord (which will be harmonised from tonic melodic minor):

E7alt  >> Am

F      >> E (5) or F# (6)
G      >> F# (6) or G# (maj7)
G#     >> A
A#     >> A or B (9)
C      >> B (9)

Even neater, if you resolve the chord to an A major tonic, you get an additional half-step move: from D to C#.

The half-step resolution idea is underlined by the tritone sub of E7alt, which is Bb7#11: a lydian dominant chord, which takes the same scale as E7alt.
E altered = E F G G# A# C D
Bb lydian dominant = Bb C D E F G Ab
These are enharmonically equivalent to modes of F melodic minor. (There's no functional relationship between the keys of A minor and F minor. The connection with F minor is coincidental, but is a useful way of deriving these scales, IF you know your melodic minors!)

You can assume that any dom7 which is resolving down a half-step will take the lydian dominant scale.
Eg, F7 to E or Em. The F7 will work much better as a lyd dom than an altered dom. (In jazz charts they usually mark it as "7#11" to remind you.)

OTOH, a plain dom7 going up a 4th (normal V7 function) is NOT always an altered dom7 (esp not in a major key) - although that option is always worth trying!
Eg, F7-Bb(maj7). F mixolydian (Bb major scale) is most likely, but F altered is worth a try. (F lydian dominant is also worth a try, but is not conventional.)
F7-Bbm: F altered definitely worth going for.

The other common place for a dom7 is as a bVII chord (major key) - where it is usually lydian dominant.
Eg, F7 - Gmaj7. F lydian dominant (C melodic minor) works well.

To sum up:

V7 in major key: mixolydian. Maybe altered.
V7 in minor key: altered. Maybe HW dim, or (much less likely in jazz) 5th mode of key scale (harmonic or melodic minor). *

bII7 in minor or major key: lydian dominant
bVII7 in major key: lydian dominant

Dom7s used as IV chords in blues are another matter. They are not functioning dom7s (like the above) and blues scale of the key is the usual choice.

*Another option on a V7 chord (major or minor key) could be wholetone, but this is not a common jazz choice unless the chord is marked as augmented (7+), esp with a 9th: 9b5 and 9#5 are clear indications of wholetone chords.
7b5 or 7#5 could be wholetone, but altered scale might be better.

NB: the above is all just hints based on common jazz practices. Not rules to follow, just some ideas you might like to try, esp if you want to sound like an authentic jazzman .